#38. Planetary Melancholia - Prateek Shankar and Valerie Navarrete

Prateek Shankar and Valerie Navarrete are founders of the Jungle Publics, a group trying to foster interdisciplinary discussions and reimagine how we relate to our planet and each other. They come on to talk about their first major publication titled "Planetary Melancholia". The article is written with Center for Complexity and the Global Arts & Cultures department at the Rhode Island School of Design. It covers a wide range of discussion points around the current state of the planet looking at how planetary crises like climate change, war, social inequality and cultural erosion are all coming together to cause impacts larger than the sum of their parts and try to understand not just the impacts on those directly affected but also the emotional dysregulation people feel by seeing all these issues unfold in front of their own phone screens everyday. Making this a unique time for personhood as we see everything good, bad and ugly unfold before our eyes in real time.

Jungle Publics : https://junglepublics.com/
Instagram: @jungle.publics
Prateek Shankar
Substack: https://substack.com/@prateekshankar
Instagram: prateekshankar_
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/prateek-shankar/
Valerie Navarrete:
Substack: https://substack.com/profile/122074846-valerie-navarrete
Instagram: valerie_nav
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/valerie-navarrete-779071233/

Chapters

• 0:00 Introductions
• 2:52 Origins of Jungle Publics
• 11:31 A Background to Planetary Melancholia
• 28:12 Climate Anxiety isn't an accurate term because...
• 38:05 Side topic: disproportionate research on women
• 43:30 Disproportionate Human Experience and Pain
• 51:12 Indigenous perspectives
• 57:49 Ambiguous Loss and Privilege to Heal
• 1:12:23 What to expect from Jungle Publics moving forward.

Transcript

0:03

[Music] okay welcome everyone to the Smooth Brain Society I am Sahir today with me pretty special episode because I came across this publication online called by a group called Jungle Publics and I found the names on it one was Prateek Shanker the next one was Valerie Navarrete and the third one was Magna Sharma in coordination with the Rhode Island School of Design and many other people and they were talking about something called planetary Melancholia now the article itself was very confusing but the name on the article was very familiar to me because he was my high school friend uh from way back in India Prateek and I asked him if he wanted to come on well to be fair he asked me if he wanted to if he could come on and explain what he was talking about a bit further uh and I said yes why not because I found the concept very interesting although also in some places very confusing because um story from way back in school he was one of the smartest people around um so smart that he was actually awarded by the city as and he's and he's making eyes at me to not say anything further so I won't so I won't but be because because of how incredible he was back in the day his writing style was also very fancy so I thought I'd get him on to kind of explain what he actually is trying to say to for us common folk um and I'll give you a little bit more of an introduction of him so he after school uh he went on and has a degree in architecture from the school of planning and architecture in New Delhi and then a masters in cultural Theory and Analysis from the Rhode Island School of Design he's not join he's not alone like I said the other person on this publication was Valerie Navarrete and she holds a masters from Rhode Island School of Design and Global arts and culture where her research explored the transmission of Colonial trauma at the US Mexico border through epigenetics and weaving having said that before that she graduated from Yale University with two Bachelors one in arts uh with the concentration in painting and the other one in molecular cellular development biology those seem like the two wildest Things to uh co- major in together but she did that uh so yeah she's won multiple fellowships uh I saw a whole list on her LinkedIn and on her website She's she was the illustrator illustration editor of the Yale Daily News um yeah and she's worked at Harvard Medical School as well so yeah both really incredible people on although very young so thanks for coming on guys thanks for intro that was really kind yeah thanks for having us yeah so let's before we even get to the article let's talk about and what you thinking about let's talk about what Jungle Publics is cuz it's titled under jungle Publics so if you guys could explain what that is what you're trying to do and then we can go from there yeah uh hi s thanks for the really warm introduction and for having us on today Jungle Publics really was just initially was just a place for Val and I to sort of uh put some of these strange discussions we've been having for a few years down on paper but I think the process of doing it uh We've sort of attracted a certain sort of community of people I think we we wrote it with this intention of trying to be as intentionally interdisciplinary and I know a lot of people try to say that they're interdisciplinary and they're trying to um challenge sort of academic censure in some way but Our intention was to really see if we can do this um in a in a way that's actually generative and actionable uh it does it does end up being a place where some of it is uh harder to understand than others but but our sense was that in trying to get all of these different sort of knowledge systems to engage with each other we might be able to create sort of multiple entry points into the discussion so even if some parts of it are illegible to you uh other things would be legible to you so it it gives you sort of uh a sort of middle ground and I mean we we call them Nexus literatures the idea being that these intersectional pieces that potentially might help you sort of access other things now how that works in theory we don't know we'll see over time but we did a few pieces uh and we've since sort of expanded our our Ambitions we've now expanded to like a community of 25 people from all over the world all all kinds and shapes and sizes of people from all kinds of backgrounds and we've realized that there might be something really interesting in trying to explore how knowledge and culture are produced and how uh I mean a lot of culture production has Colonial Origins we know that in in I mean in something as simple as the modern University system and stuff like that with thinking about how we might be able to not not sort of necessarily decolonize these institutions but just uh conceptualize alternative models for cultural production altogether alternative model for an institution that does this sort of thing now we don't know what that is I mean so jungle public really for us as an exploration of what that might look like could we sort of I mean we're not we're not trying to find a seat on the on the on the on the current sort of tables of high knowledge making our idea is we we want to make our own table and we want to see what that looks like if you if you actually do it from the ground up and do it in a way that uh brings together voices that you typically wouldn't hear puts voices in conversation that typically aren't put in conversation yeah yeah I think Prateek gave like probably the most raw like core of what we're trying to do here I just wanted to add like I think in these beginning phases what has been really exciting for us is is again amassing this group of artists and Scholars who have all these different disciplinary knowledges and learning from one another we've hosted a few like seminars and conversations with one another and they're small in Intimate but like it'll go on for like two three hours like someone has to end it because we end up getting into it so easily and like falling down these rabbit holes in other people's research and like having something to say because our research is somehow tangential so I think because of that chemistry that we witnessed it sort of was I don't know a sign that maybe this we're going in the right direction and there is some value in expanding what began is just a publication in our eyes and like amassing this group and maybe it could be something that is a lot broader than the current institutionalized models that we see when we think of like Academia but yeah that's where we're at right now with jungle Publics nice uh well before we get to the actual paper then I can I'll ask you what do you think are the next steps for it to grow further I like I really like the idea of building sort of a community from the ground up uh I like the idea of being as inclusive as possible because I've had podcasts which talk about how exclusionary sometimes Academia can be how uh we had Mehmet Orhan on from Normandy University in Paris in Paris in France sorry who said uh that uh who was talking about elitism in Academia and how very specific people only ever get published and how hard it is for research papers especially from the global South uh to get voices or be heard and what you guys are doing seems very good for things like that and so therefore I was wondering like what do you guys see yourself going in the next like near and long-term future I guess that's the big question our sort of initial thinking around this has been we we've prob of got the community together to think about what these different sort of models of Engagement and dissemination would look like and I think one sort of conclusion we came to is that we don't necessarily need to invent anything like reinvent the wheel in anywhere there actually already exist alternative models of uh knowledge production and U and some of them are in intrinsically sort of uh meant to be small and scale and very intimate so our sense was instead of being this sort of new enlarge encompassing logic that's trying to accumulate power in in in the sort of in the sense that the power you get when make knowledge we were thinking of ourselves as could we sort of become this like connecting tissue between these different knowledge making movements if you think about something as simple as indigenous storytelling practices in South America or even like day-to-day folk singing in Tamil Nadu which are which are carrying a sort of ancestral knowledge to them or and and knowledge about the land and a relationship to the land and if you scale that up to you know the the memes and the and the new sort of you know streaming Logics that that some of the younger populations utilize to to make knowledge these are all legitimate like if you think about social movements right now all of them are empowered by this really quick easy to access uh modes of knowledge so at the core it's really not about finding uh I mean inventing anything it's really about trying to find a way to create sustainable Pathways for connection and and and uh cross-pollination basically and that's what we're trying to think about and we have a few things in lined up uh one being a residency that we're planning with uh some Partners in in Kenya with the idea of sort of tapping into arts and culture practitioners and possibly even inviting other sort of disciplines scientists and policy makers to do effectively a residency um a residency with no product in it I mean typically a residency is you you work on something together and then you have a show or something but we don't really care about you making something as much as the process of sitting together and engaging in these processes so I guess our next steps are really about thinking about these different ways that we could get people to convene and see how that might translate into some sort of um connecting tissue nice all right shall we get into your your first publication of sorts uh into planetary Melancholia um so C maybe you could give us a little overview of why you why you thought this would be something to write about um yeah to begin with and then we can go from there so maybe the overarching why the background to it yeah so why why don't critique start out with his cuz it it originally was first kind of just like an article critique pitched that made sense for him to write um but then it really expanded and that's when I got involved in it more but I'll have Prateek kind of explain what it originally started as and then maybe jump in when that expansion starts off yeah that sounds good um so I guess the whole thing started with I uh um so until I recently I worked as a a strategic design fellow at a place called the centre for complexity at the Rhode Island School of Design which is also where Val and I met um and the cent of a complexity is is trying to to I mean they're trying to sort of tackle these sort of big picture problems right where in this where in this moment where there are these like really massive overarching crisis and it seems like our institutional infrastructure just can't keep up um and one of the things we kept encountering was that in any of these sort of large forums you go into where you're trying to discuss things like climate action or or social justice there's this really strong palpable sense of helplessness and grief um that's addressed to some extent uh but that's always there and that it always sort of leads to this moment where everybody just feels so defeated that that they're like you know even if he did something it's I mean nothing's going to change and there's there sort of this like overarching gloom and we figured maybe we should think about this maybe we should think about this sort of epidemic of grief especially after the pandemic and I mean how that might be playing into a lot of these processes and that's kind of where it started one of the frames we've been working on and trying to make popular at the center for complexity and now at other places that are also collaborating with like Dark Matter labs and Politics For Tomorrow in Berlin is this idea of the of the planetary and the planetary is not a new idea I mean Gayatri Spivak proposed this decades ago as sort of an alternative to the sort of totalizing logics of relation relating to the planet like globalization or internationalism and stuff like that with the idea being that a can we a decenter The Human Experience when we think about the planet uh so it isn't necessarily about globalization and that you know all these countries are communicating that the planetary as this like much more complex entangled system of human and more than human processes that actually make the planet what it is and that are uh and actually sort of Define the way it functions right so when we think about globalization we think about trade and we think about the internet but we don't really think about the the fact that all of these systems rely on the land they rely on the climate they rely on these ecological and soci eological processes which be completely dismissed so that's kind of where we started approaching the idea just like when we think about this idea of the planetarian Spivak has this she takes this one step further she has a concept called planetarity which she frames as being like an active protest against anything that is totalizing because ultimately if you really want to think about a relationship to the planet we don't really know right like we don't really know what makes the planet work we have our best guesses and our different sort of we have scientific knowledge and Indigenous knowledge and some sort of implicit knowledge about how this works but we fundamentally don't know there is a a mystery to how the world works and I think encompassing that mystery into a relationship with the planet is important and that kind of is how we were thinking of the planetary so the thought was can we can we take this idea of this like deeply deep entanglement of the planet functions inside and us it to think about grief and use it to think about this epidemic of grief and the more we thought about it we came to the conclusion that there actually is something very unique about how personhood uh is constituted today and how that personhood itself is affected by these varying degrees of exposure to all kinds of crises right if you think about the speed at which we communicate right now uh there's a way in which in the past a crisis would happen somewhere and then you would get to know about it in a few days and you would usually get to know about it by the point where there's some sort of action being taken but right now we see everything happening in real time there is responses to it in real time there is a rejection of it in real time you see people denying the narratives in real time excuse me and there's a way in which you never really have enough time to process what's going on and I think it it's this we we came to the conclusion that it isn't really just grief it's this massive overwhelming uh like network of feelings of just being burdened by all these projections of people trying to make sense and partially making sense and then competing with their different understandings of the situation that leave all of us feeling reall y confused and the the strangeness of it all is that given how alienating neoliberal Society is by Design right it keeps forcing it on us that we we need to be individuals without realizing that you can't really be an individual without like a social without there being a social model you're sort of stuck in this place where on one level you want to be an independent individual but you also really want Community but there really aren't places for that sort of community anymore we don't really have public spaces and this is sort of across the world right now it's it's getting harder and harder to find common places like even a park where people sort of engage with each other these are fewer and far between so you end up being drawn to the digital sphere to do exactly that and these digital spaces are highly addictive by Design so now we We crave Community but we don't get the sort of space and time and intimacy that you would have in typical Community spaces while all also participating in this like high spectacle High attention grabbing discursive environment right so we're all left sort of fractured I think in some sense and that's kind of where the idea started about the sort of strange feeling that we're all all encompassing and also at the same time feeling in different degrees uh and that's something I want to get into later but and then as as we start unpacking the idea we uh Val came on board uh because she has a biology a background in molecular biology and another friend of our Prarthana Sham who who's a therapist the idea was can we sort of bring these different disciplines together and put them in conversation and then yeah well came up with some really cool things yeah yeah that was it's funny because it always starts this way if you're feeling a little over welsa here like when we plan an article it's like we think we're going to write about the entire world and then we have to get writing and then we're just like stuck like it becomes I think talking about the process itself is really important because kind of like what you gauge here it's when you read it without having maybe you're not in the room in the conversation when we're writing it and maybe if you don't have the same background it could be an intimidating piece and I think we knew that when we were writing it and that was something we want to work on later but like that is all to say that since this was our first larger form essay we were super eager about getting every thought we had on paper which is why it's very long and intimidating and like just trying to stretch all corners of the world of course there are holes um but yeah I was brought on because a lot of my research you know spawning even from undergrad was very situated in this narrative about expanding the environment Beyond like what we see it is not just like the trees and the grass or the material it's like the second layer that is causing Health disparities that is like making certain people die of covid over others and it's a disproportionate race like disparity um all of these things that I was intrigued by when I was an undergrad um and I bring up this background because I think it's important that you don't just land on these ideas without having done research maybe in something seemingly unrelated and then you stumble upon this idea and for me it happened during the pandemic when we were seeing all of our institutions fail and kind of like what Prateek alluded to we had like these third spaces and senses of community were gone and we realized none of us really had that as much as we thought technology seemed to be the thing we were turning to but then I I don't know about you guys but I became sick of it because like like Prateek said we were just we were witnessing trauma every single day on whatever news app you had whatever social media app you had and it's tiring I mean like we were not we were not trained programmed evolved to be dealing with this amount of stress and Trauma at the rate that we are um and when I realized that and I had to take a break when I was writing my thesis for undergrad I think a lot of those ideas were transferring into what I was interested in at the time just thinking about okay well then why is it that we're all suffering like there has to be a reason um and yeah like this idea this article that is like like very expansive I think transpired because we all had that sort of Awakening at some point in our research and our careers at the time our research um and came together and when all three of us had a conversation about it on Zoom and we were kind of presenting to each other our own research backgrounds uh we started to see this connection about uh the material and the immaterial and that interaction um so here you studied epigenetics so you kind of you know that it's really hard to describe to someone who has this notion of what a genetic predisposition is like it just feels like something that's written and it's there so you're going to develop XYZ but what if I were to tell you you might be predisposed to this if you're in the right environment at the right time because your grandparents were in that similar environment and were stressed out therefore they had to develop a mechanism to read your genes a certain like it is very hard to explain that um which is why I think when I was at Ry a lot of what I Wasing trying to do myself is like communicate it in a way using you know Linguistics of like art which feels very uh tangible and um easy to manipulate the material and the immaterial at the same time but yeah so when I came on board to this project I was like okay I think I think I know how we can all combine this and all three of us had a discussion I wrote a bit um about like epigenetic landscape sort of just giving a lit review of um what that immaterial material interaction could be as it relates to grief and Trauma which are themselves very abstract terms and not everyone is understand and frankly are pretty untranslatable words that are heavy with meaning but like light in any sort of definition and so for us it's it's a challenge to talk about these things but because we can feel them and sense them that was like the biggest task of the piece um but yeah I think manipulating these disciplines that we all came with really helped create the closest we could do at the time with the tools we had um an overview it's not a solution at all it is simply uh sort of just a review like a literature review of everything that we know and little Bridges to connect those little islands of things that we know um but yeah it's it is it is like a lengthy piece and at some point I actually am I would be curious to know what parts maybe you were most confounded by sah here because that is helpful to us to know what parts we probably need to translate better in in future writings but yeah that was sort of the the summary of how we we got it all together oh that was really good I quite uh there's so many things which I would want to touch on because you mentioned so many things obviously uh first I'll start with the trauma Point trauma is very interesting because depending on who you ask in the context it also means very different things so if you ask someone like a brain surgeon or someone working as a neuros psychologist you're talking about when you talk about trauma you want something which has actually really impacted the brain and you can not you can like see it on CT scans and MRI scans and stuff versus uh uh how generally we speak about trauma versus if you talk to a psychiatrist how they talk about trauma um so when with throw out the word trauma it's also very different about how people understand what you mean by it um uh as talking about as talking about your way of explaining epigenetics I I quite like it that was the one part of the paper which I could understand without any second guessing cuz obviously I've studied it for so long uh I guess for people who don't get what it is my favorite example is to go to this one about the Dutch hunger winter because I feel when you talk about intergenerational impacts of mental health issues so like by stress by alcoholism so and so blah blah blah I feel it's a bit more nebulous but when you talk about something like obesity or something like diabetes it's a lot easier because it's more measurable um and I think and I think I like I quite like the Dutch hunger winter example so for for people who don't know there was a du there was a famine in the Netherlands caused a bit by World War II caused a bit by few other issues there was there was very limited access to food and what they noticed is in the generations after that so the kids who weren't born then but the Gen but the Next Generation who were born after the famine was over they started seeing higher obesity rates in them or higher rates of um eat eating disorders in them and one of the reasons for it is because due to epigenetics this idea that their parents kind of trained their bodies for a limited amount of food or lack of resources but then when they all of a sudden got abundance of resources their kids weren't like genetically they had the genes but they weren't programmed as well to deal with the abundance of food and that's one very simple example it's obviously way more complex than that but I kind of like to use it because it's more measurable it's more in people's heads you can get the idea of obesity or diabetes around a lot better than you can that oh my God because your grandparents had to go through this your stress now or you're not built to deal with this kind of stress now it's uh yeah uh you mentioned you mentioned the planetary um I wanted to ask how is this different from when we talk about climate anxiety or things like that uh because uh a lot of the anxiety I feel is a oh when we talk about climate anxiety we talk about issues we see regarding climate change certain ways and how that's affecting people's mental and physical health as well we call it climate anxiety but you also include physical health as well because um different temperatures cause rise to different diseases which were probably not existent in that area before um so on so forth so how is this idea of uh your idea of planetary Melancholy different or growing building upon that idea yeah I mean the thing is I mean climate anxiety was one of the first ideas I was looking into and my my my concern with framings like that is that a in general right like in the in in the public Consciousness there's this there's this sense that the climate breakdown is going to be like the movie 2012 you know like suddenly everything's going to explode you know the sun's going to burn us down but really that's not what it is it's it's a it's a it's a it's different processes happening at different speeds and it's going to lead to like you know increasing heat leads to F shortages in one part of the world which which leads to you know civil unrest there there are glaciers melting pathogens in the air potential for new kinds of health risks right which over time could like destabilize economic Pathways which could lead to you know uh uh these sort of trans transnational resource conflict icts which would lead to you know people actually dying we're seeing that happening right now there there's there's the energy crisis is leading to a moral crisis right and and a and a really a genocide and so the thing with the climate the framing climate anxiety is it makes you think that you're feeling bad because it's getting hot but the it's I guess it's worth talking about the climate crisis itself as being not just about the climate but it's it's actually a deeper sociological sort of condition that it's it's it's it's slowly going to multiply and it is into all of these different layers that aren't necessarily related to The Climate but everything else it's going it's going to affect all of these different processes so if you're feeling a certain alienation already it gets hotter outside we spend more time indoors right and now we spend even more time digitally and that leads to another sort of parad and you can sort of keep going on and on into these different down these different sort of systemic Logics and also we know that all of this affects certain social groups discriminated populations far more than others right and that's the thing with climate anxiety it seems to conflate the experience of watching these crisis from a distance from actually being the first to experience it right if you are in the tropical world where you're experiencing massive heat spikes or if you're in a Coastal Community that's actually experiencing flooding the framing of climate anxiety doesn't doesn't differentiate that experience of like fear because you're actually going to lose your home to you know sitting at home and watching it on the internet right and I feel like adding that Nuance was something we thought was critical which kind of brought us to the section of Planetary Melancholia no very nice I also while you were saying that I also remembered something which one of my previous guests had said so Marian Reddan works at the Einstein in Institute in New York and she was talking but how people perceive pain differently after uh have based on like which climate they've grown up in um not not just that so they've taken twins this study in America they've taken twins who've had various very different Lifestyles and apparently their subconscious pain perception is very different so uh so your social economic status where you live your climate so and so all affect these things which is very interesting I um and yeah I wanted to just point that out it's pretty cool that the way you guys are talking about is kind of bringing back all almost all the other episodes which people have spoken about to me and they're kind of like combining it at the same time because what you guys are talking about is so broad that's cool I mean that's why we we did this right like to attract to attract everyone like come to [Laughter] us like throw your net out real wide and see what you get yeah yeah but also to that point I think it's it's worth noting that I mean there's a way in which the climate crisis is going is disproportionately going to affect um certain populations more than others right like it's it's not Europe is going to experience the Fallout of the climate crisis right people in the tropics in the next 10 years if don't bring the temperature down are literally going to die of heat right and and increasing sort of water shortages and the glaciers melting right which is not to say that there may not be specific climate climatological things happening in Europe it's just that there's a disproportionality to this and if you think about cases historically of like mines being built around you know populations of color predominantly in the west um you'll see that the climate Crisis is only going to make this worse so if you're trying to do I mean people talk about the transitioning to electricity like it's it's going to save us all from everything but even transitioning to electricity requires us to mine critical minerals like lithium or nickel or Cobalt and all of that is seeing these historic Labor Relations these violent Labor Relations get like exaggerate even more right so now you have these horrible basically almost enslaved labor processes in Congo where people are digging for Cobalt with their bare hands because there's such a high demand for it and there's nobody's really thinking about safety measures or anything like that because historically the West has never offered the same standards of safety to the quote unquote third world right so I think I think about this all the time right when I was when I was in the US you'd get these weather warnings about a cyclone approaching or something or like it's going to be a heavy you know like a a thunderstorm today and I'm just like this is an evening of rain in India like you guys have a very high like like you guys don't understand what a thunder really is right and like I I think about this all the time because it does translate to many different things and we know this even in things like the ways in which the pain uh of women is typically I mean is is disproportionately measured right you you you assume that women can handle more pain and that black women especially can handle even more pain and then we get these like reflected in the in the in in how our Healthcare is provided which is the point actually that Val brought up and I don't know if you want to say something more about that yeah well yeah this is I was going to kind of draw out even more too and like talk to that point but just the fact that this climate crisis is really just bringing to surface things that have been brewing for so long and that is simply because now the first world or whatever you want to call it is now being somewhat impacted by it so as soon as like there are some effects that can be perceived now it's now it's a crisis as if people dying in these like terrible labor conditions up forti we're talking about we're not already terrible to begin with and we're not something that is still going on that people are able to ignore and be complacent about because frankly that's the way that things are designed here that you you don't really see what's behind the mirror and yet you're just like taking part in it and now that things are starting to emerge because even if we aren't going to be the ones that are like at the site of I mean not we but just like a broader we of like people in the first world are not going to be at the sight of of say the tragedies that will happen later on with climate crisis like there are going to be refugees and there are going to be other um Supply demand like things that aren't perceived now will be brought to light and we will have to deal with it then people have been saying that for many many years and it it is interesting to see that it's almost like it's just a self-filled prophecy at this point it is something that has been going on for so many years that the that of course it's going to happen but yeah going back to what Prateek was saying like a lot of this I think is simply what we decide to privilege in High Level education high level institutional knowledges um what we decide is worth studying how we design what we know and think specifically in Academia and I think like yeah no discipline is safe from this I think all disciplines have major blind splots that overlap and then you start to see a pattern when you zoom out a bit which is I think something else that we're trying to do in this essay but yeah I mean like in terms of women's pain as well or even um I was just having a conversation the day with Maghna about like birth control in general um and how like it has become the women's responsibility but and it was like this empowering tool at the time it was advertised that way and now a lot of women there's like sort of this counter movement that's like actually no the real power is getting off the pill because people are realizing all these insane hormonal Downstream effects that have not been studied because they have not been made relevant or or seen as like something worth studying but are drastically changing women's lives and even their fertility problems um susceptibility to hypoglycemia um like the list goes on and on and and the because the rain of symptoms are so broad there has been and and of course it is I mean if you learn or study science you know how insane hormones are Imagine pumping fake hormones inside your body like shit's going to change of course and everybody's different like it just seems like a no-brainer but because the the fast solution at the time was just to like pour that responsibility onto the woman and people didn't really feel the need to study those Downstream effects and even to this day don't really care to it or just maybe because also it's too expensive there's grant money involved uh you have to involve the NIH like there's so many red tape that it's almost dismissed immediately so it's kind of like choose to suffer on the pill if you are or get off of it and then the responsibility is still sort of made on you because now we're going to make abortion illegal in certain States it's just like there there is no concession here but then again like what goes all back to is like what we're privileging in these spaces like who are we privileging in these spaces and like all of this knowledge has been known but what is a knowledge that is actually true and perceived in the public that has the most power um but yeah that was that's my mini rant about that to add on to Prateek and now the I I know this is a bit off topic but stretching further you you and you would have done research so you've seen so many papers even like even animal models even pre-clinical animal models where they only use male mice or male rats they do not look at female different uh differences in like female rats I I use male and female because we're only talking about the XY chromosome at this point but um you you see that if you're not even looking at these differences and if you're not even looking at how hormones can affect certain drugs whatever what do you have what really do you have you're basing it off uh almost only only male studies only men being looked at and then you're trying to device things that does not relate to birth control but it relates to so many other drugs um it relates to it relates to so many I I think the the shooting pain in the left arm for example for heart attacks it doesn't happen it happens way more in men than it does in women so a lot of women heart attacks aren't diagnosed correctly because they don't have the same symptoms um for example because it wasn't stud it wasn't studied as well and now like more recently there's more papers coming out but for God knows how long it wasn't. I remember my colleague or my senior writing an entire review about the serotonin research on serotonin and how I think she looked at over aund something papers and only four or five ever did anything with looking at female Rats or female mice or anything to that so it's so dis it was so disproportionate for so long and you know what it's so crazy you bring that up because I actually confronted my like I worked at a lab for a year as you mentioned and um when I was working there I confronted my uh postto about it because I was curious I was like like why why are we not like like also utilizing female mice in our study because we also were only using male mice and his his explanation which is which is true I think which is why I mean I can't speak for every lab but I think is majority wise that it's too expensive to uh track a female Mouse's cycle and to predicate how they because hormones again are crazy things and change your body and they fluctuate for women on like the 28 day cycle like every woman knows this because they experience it but for a mice for a mouse or for a rat it's four days just to say four days for a mouse or for a rat days so you have to track those fluctuations yeah which honestly feels like it even you saying that way easier to track it itself but still is like so out of the way for most like researchers and just too complicated and because of that it is just eradicated all together because perhaps there is more funding involved in doing so um but yeah you bring up this point that maybe we could also talk about is that something I've been thinking about is This this term posthumanist which is basically um thinking about a world designed for beings that are not human like non-human entities so thinking about how like a tree experiences the world and designing something outside of that um which feels like a very abstract concept but when I first heard of post humanism my interpretation was kind of what we're talking about now I'm like uh in some ways like posthumanism is just including female mice into the studies like that is posthumanism because right now the human that all of our drugs are predicated on are male driven or like that's just like one example of it but like who who is encompassing human right now and the fact that we're having these conversation about po humanism in the environment is so important but it is it does feel like a far dream when we're still like asking for the bare minimum like there is just this Gap that like we should be doing this and this but we haven't even gotten to in an inclusive human We can't agree on what that is yeah if I could just jump into that to that point there's this way in which right like okay cool we don't we don't offer we treat certain populations as as as being non-human more than others right and it go kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about like these varying definitions of trauma and there's varing definitions across disciplines but like if you think about trauma as just like a fluctuation or like sorry a disregulation from some baseline state of health like it's really it's interesting to think about how that Baseline state of health is actually not the same for different people right like I think I'm just going to go that like white fragility has these models where you would think that there is far less tolerance for pain in these systems right and you and you see a lot more outrage and this is a mass generalization I'm not saying all white people are like this but I just feel like populations of color have historically been shown to be far more resilient to pay into all sorts of these crises right so in in that case like trauma itself is not uh a stable sort of State disregulation itself is not a stable State because certain states of disregulation some people actually it's the norm and in fact find it completely seem to function completely fine but other people don't seem to accept it right and I think it's it's interesting to think about uh how exactly we choose to medicate or resolve some of these issues right because like what is the Baseline we're trying to use the the medical industry so there's this thing you're talking about male mice but I'm also thinking about like uh consumer markets and how that plays out right like what sorts of medicines are people actually buying how much of the medicine are people trying to buy also like thinking about the history of pain medication with like the saers and stuff we already know the entire sort of um added layer of non-medical just pure marketing that went into proving to you that you have pain and that you need to be having more and more right and now we see that in the opioid crisis and I'm sure there are others that can speak more to that but even that tells you that there's no stable uh measure for pain right so what exactly are we solving for and if you sort of extend that metaphor to the planetary and if you think of the climate crisis as the planet experiencing trauma the the planet experiencing a state of disregulation what is the Baseline we want to get to and you'll realize that there's no straight answer to it right like it it it actually depends on what is the Baseline is does the is the Baseline predicated on you being able to survive in the future and what does that survival look like right like this survival a healthy Lifetime and a healthy lifetime used to be 60 years a long time ago and now there are a bunch of people who want to live forever right like what what is exactly is a healthy life life Lifetime and what exactly is sustainable my sense is and this is why I think thinking about something in the planetary frame is useful is that instead of thinking about these is in terms of individual um experiences instead of thinking about this as causal things that something happened somebody felt pain they felt this much pain it's far more interesting interesting and probably useful to think about in relational terms if even right now in our conversation we understand that uh the the amount of pain that men can typically handle versus the amount of pain women can typically handle thinking also of the fact that you know women literally their bodies are designed to forget the pain they experience when they have babies because it's that much pain like you have like a biological system that's like helps you sort of forget about it right we already know there's a there's a that it's not proportionate but if you sort of focusing on the fact that uh you know they have more pain and they have less pain if you think about the relation I think that gives you a far more useful metric because the differential in that relationship gives you a far larger more encompassing picture of the pain spectrum of the trauma Spectrum itself and that might give us actually more useful data to respond to it is my sense you guys are the scientist so you tell me what you do with that data I think there's a little bit of a difference between the pain you feel and the pain you actually uh the pain you express right so there's also this thing of shut up and get on with it um so you don't necessarily Express certain pains uh even if you're feeling it so I think there's two levels of measurement which from a scientific hat if you put it on you kind of want to see how much how much the brain is actually light up lighting up how much the neurons are actually firing in terms of pain um versus how much the person's actually saying how much they feel how much they're trying to control what they feel how much they uh and yeah that's what I was talking about if you want to listen to Maran Ran's episode because she spokes a little bit to it um where she talks about the difference between how men and women express pain versus how they seem to feel pain when the same level of shock is given to them or the same level of kind of they try to induce the same amount of pain through various things and also it's not just that now we're talking about physical pain but then we're also talking about the emotional pain of like loss or grieving and that those systems are different and that adds another layer to one how would you measure it scientifically right I I'm not going to like go into a room and tell oh I killed your kids or something like that and be like see how they react it's a bit sketchy if you do things like that so you need so you need to you you need to it's it's also a question of how you want to measure these things what you're looking for uh and yeah I think the systems involved are also slightly different as opposed to just pure physical pain um and yeah because we're talking about uh a ho we're generally talking about like the mental health issue yeah there of course physical issues but when we're talking about plantry Melancholia um climate anxiety and so on we're talking about the more nebulous emotional pain and anxiety around it and of course as you mentioned there's a lot of physical pain of like if you andard drowning and things but uh or if you have a mind collapse on you there's a lot of physical pain there but we're we're talking we're we're talking kind of a bit of both and when we're talking about the emotional side of it I think it's a lot harder and sorry Val wanted to say something yeah I was just okay yeah first of all I wanted to talk a little bit more about like the emotional pain it is really I think there's just like a fundamental flaw in like scientific method like it helps in so many ways of course to create drugs it has been it has been fabulous this not the word I want to use but it has been it it has been doing its thing we have been seeing um an eradication of um diseases that have killed like thousands of people millions of people in the past through vaccinations um we saw what it did with covid um and I'm not like none of what we're saying is to Discount the scientific method or um like the Miracles of like science and what it brought to us but I do think that there has been like there is just this inherent flaw when it comes to these really ambiguous terms like pain physical and emotional um I actually read Empire of pain which was uh that crazy Bible level book about the sackers which was insane it blew my mind I highly recommend to anyone because you see how far the rabbit hole goes but um I think I wanted to talk a bit more about the emotional because that's kind of what we at least I was trying to focus on um and what we were focusing a bit more on I noticed in our article as well but just thinking about how um and we had like a one of our other colleagues Lily many color she hopped on and she kind of [ __ ] on the fact that we were talking so much about like scientific methods which like makes sense because to her she's like she she focuses a lot on like indigenous WI wiom rituals practices she herself's indigenous so when she read it she's like we've been saying this [ __ ] for so many years like of of course like you guys are just catching up now and she's so right like there's this term called susto which uh translates to roughly like fear um which is a term that was used in lahu nahua latinx like communities and Indigenous practices um in Mexico and it's basically it it talks about the fact that you might experience a certain fright at some point in your life and if it becomes an unresolved or like ignored thing or emotion or memory it will materialize as a disease later on in your life and that is something and that has been sort of a Hallmark of the way that they deal with public health or community health because Public Health to them was and to a lot of other indigenous groups I can't really speak for all of them but for the ones that I think I've sort of read about there there is this idea of like Community not just within each other and their families but like the Earth the environment the status of um each other's well-beings there's like that Synergy that um that Community spirit that is the public health Public Health now is not really that right I feel like public health has had its issues from the very beginning um when we decided to use cartography and um quantify things because a lot of Public Health is not quantifiable in some ways it is but when it comes to these sort of things like these ambiguous terms of trauma and emotional well-being um and how those things have manifested in covid rate susceptibility to these metabolic diseases that is not quantifiable just like the downstream stuff that we're seeing that is the disease itself is quantifiable so I think that's where Public Health sort of has that major flaw I don't know exactly how to fix it but I think that is just something that we should note and be aware of as we move forward um and trying to even like create advancements within that field but yeah that was all I was going to say about about that that so that that was very interesting I like that I like that I like that part and you would be very interested in this because um New Zealand is of course a hot bed for things like this considering unlike most indigenous communities which were almost wiped out completely uh during colonialism uh Mai had a treaty uh on which New Zealand was built so New Zealand was built as a bicultural society of course all the other things yada y y of them being uh a disenfranchise and being imprisoned for uh everything literally literally for speaking the mai they were imprisoned at one point in the 70s so they've been mistreated horribly but having said that because of the framework of the treaty and what New Zealand was buil upon and over the past I I want to say across my lifetime um it's become a a like ma matanga Mai is which they call it it's like Mai knowledge um or that has come more into the mainstream in terms of use for things uh ma Mai Leed research has become a big thing um more so then when I first started uni so I started uni in 2012 it wasn't a thing I think 5% of the New Zealand population spoke the then and then now come 2024 which is 12 years later I think it's something like 20% of the New Zealand population can speak the which is a big step forward um ockland university people wrote a letter saying that Mai knowledge is not real science uh and there was this huge uproar and backlash for it because against the people who pen that um one of one of my guests of the early podcasts I think my fifth episode or so was Dr Tian who led the charge against it she's Mai researcher who led the charge against uh the Auckland University researchers who said that matanga Mai isn't real knowledge or real science um and I feel like yeah the science Community sometimes or like the academic Community sometimes becomes very gated in what they allow and what they don't allow and if it's not their method then it's not correct which is not true because so many things keep getting revised keep getting redacted keep getting built upon and that's the whole point right of the at least in my head the SC the whole point of science is you try and you improve and if new ideas come in this case ancient ideas come up you try them and you see what's uh good bad and so on but because we're running out of time like we've been recording for nearly an hour I should I feel we should ask about a few of the other key points which grabbed me in your article and I'll get you guys to like quickly like run through those ideas if that's okay as opposed to like a conversation which we've been having so far just so that we can cover a few more points for everybody listening uh so one which I wanted to ask the first thing which I wanted to ask about was this idea of ambiguous loss you guys talk about it quite a bit um but I didn't understand all of what I kind of got the idea but not really so if you could explain that a bit further that would be nice uh and then I'll point to the other couple things that we can talk about yeah I can uh speak to that really quickly um I mean I encountered this St for the first time uh in a podcast by Pauline boss um and I'm not sure where she gets the idea from but the idea is simply this right like typically if you think about just any kind of sort of um drama or you sort of have a source of the trauma usually you try to you know either if it's a if it's if it's a psychological thing you know you go if you sit in like if you think about typical therapy processes you sit and you think about that moment of trauma you process it you think about the Fallout you think about all of these like Downstream effects and then you come to some sort of resolution right or in in more literal terms like you know typical Revenge Tales somebody killed my dad I kill that dude resolution right there's a a I know what caused the trauma right I know this is exactly what caused the pain what happens with something like the climate crisis and all of these other crises that are like folded into that and because you can see that even in the politics that's emerging now is that it's hard to pinpoint a location and it's hard to make sense of what exactly will help right we don't really know I mean the the only solution you can seem to come to is like yeah we need to save the planet I guess but like what does that what does that even mean right so I think there's something very unique about the sort of uh psychological experiences we're having now in response to all of these crises in that we don't there's no origin point to it and there's no sense of when it will end right like colonialism uh was different at least uh in in its sort of original form because you knew who the oppress oppressor was and there was a there was a sense of okay if we get rid of the oppressor then we will be liberated right of course now we know that Colonial the physical occupation of the colonizer is not where colonization ends right this coloniality is sort of an epistemic condition that takes much longer and that's still going on but and and that that that sort of phenomenon exists in this ambiguous frame right when do you know that we have been completely free of the of the colonizing Spirit right when are we truly decolonized we don't know right and it leaves you in this place where you feel incred incredibly helpless because you don't know where what's going to happen U and also you're you're sort of locked in these sort of conflicting ideas of what might be the cause of the pain and you know am I really feeling the pain if it doesn't really have a cause and we see this a lot with people experiencing major me Mental Health crisis like I myself am bipolar where like every now and then I'm just like am I really bipolar or is it just what the psychologist said the psychiatrist said to me and then then you know I have my own metrics for like figuring it out and going back to the question of you know science does work I I take my medication every day and I feel like a saer person for in the days I don't take it I'm not a s person so I guess that's my answer right that's why that's how I know I have I have a a condition but I guess that's really what the idea of ambiguous loss was and I guess it points to a deeper sort of issue in all of this right like as a society um and this is more and more the case nowadays because the like capitalist Frameworks we have a like a orientation towards a thingification right everything needs to be Consolidated into an entity we're very bad as a as a population at holding uncertainty right to to the point that we've in a lot of cultures we have even wrapped up uncertainty into you know into a a humanlike figure like a god figure right God is the all-encompassing whatever right which is great for certain people who believe in that sort of thing but we realize that nobody can really just hold on to that uncomfortable feeling of something being unstable of something being unresolvable and I think ambiguous losses and idea of points to that we're really bad at this and I think that might also point to why we're feeling these overwhelming feelings because on some level these things are never going to go away we're not going to get some tangible sense of closure around clim the climate crisis it's just going to live in your body and I really wonder how this is going to travel Downstream with our children and stuff like that well but they'll be burning cuz the temperature will be really bad so I don't think they'll care but uh that's kind of what I was trying to get it uh B did you have any more to add to that or should I jump on to the next one which I had questions for um I think Prateek summarized very well we can we can move forward so we can get through your questions yeah yeah uh oh to be fair I could combine the last two into one and you guys can go on about it so you guys mentioned two terms one was uh anthropocentric bias we kind of touched upon it a little bit uh but I I kind of guess I'm trying to make the connection between what we discussed and the actual term if anybody reads anybody goes from here and reads the article and the other one was the privilege to heal I think those two would be nice things to kind of discuss and end on in terms of the episode so yeah I yeah I guess take it away if you could go through the two of them yeah so I think in a lot of ways these terms are things that we've inadvertently been talking about before we even start asking these questions um this idea that like a a lot of what the foundations of these disciplines have been focusing on is for again a very specific type of human and also um a very specific type of population and geography and uh in terms of the privilege to heal that kind of came by by accident we were just talking about privileges in general um and what it means to like have these dispropor well actually you know what it was because I'm thinking about when we were writing it it was we started out by trying to write these AI stories like these AI written stories about um experiencing trama in like this like Mass climate change event because we were curious about like the bias first of all I was curious about what the bias would be but second of all just like um wanting to to create a narrative without ourselves being involved in it because that felt really problematic um but just letting the computer do its thing and we started out with these stories um about like just like a a guy like someone from Western Society that's living in like Kansas or something and then someone who's like like we're saying like actually drowning and it experiencing like physical pain um someone who was like part of one of those quote unquote third world countries and when I was reading through it it just was so cringy for many reasons of course as anyone would expect an AI bot to write about but like it it just made me realize also that like it really is like the meme first world problems like you start to see like what people are grieving over like and I've I can I've definitely been victim to this myself where it's like I will cry when I see something on my phone I will feel very upset I'm like I need to take a break from like looking at the news and everyone's done this like it's really hard to be witness to these things but like we can just turn off our phones and like keep going we can do yoga we can meditate and we can like tell each other like oh like just take a break like the world's terrible like go take a walk and like like that is healing and like that is a privilege because again not everyone can just turn off their phones and do those things um and when the AI bot revealed that even more so I was like it is not a good idea for us to include these stories but I think it did emerge from that from that um process when we were writing because in doing that it kind of unveiled a little bit of our biases too like we are getting at least I was getting very emot about certain things um about the experience of witnessing but it's literally a first world problem like Okay and like these people are like aren't these people's problems a little bit more magnified and they don't have that privilege as much as we do um but yeah I think to to speak to that second point if people are curious what that means that's kind of the origin of like that term and what we often see now in these self-care rituals that um are getting glorified and monetized frankly like that's a whole other thing that we could talk about but um like yoga classes meditation like these $500 workshops to heal yourself like taking iasa and like stripping your ego like just these things that like that's cool if you do them but like I think that does deserve a conversation in itself in in witness to these other things we were trying to talk about yeah I like if just like add to that I mean we should clarify that we're not trying to belittle anybody's sort of psychological experiences right like these are these are these are hard times it's very hard to be a human being but like let's think about it right like right now you have students in America protesting because there are literally children being murdered um but then there are also populations who say the Jewish kids are feeling safe and I feel like bringing both of those ideas into the same conversation is the problem here right we're equating actual death actual physical loss of life livelihood homes land to discomfort um which is not to say that that's not a bad thing like I'm sure you're feeling uncomfortable and that's you know it's maybe igniting uh generational sort of logic like generational trauma that you you may have had because of past experiences in your ancestry but it's not the same thing it's really not the same thing and one of the most interesting things uh that Lily actually pointed out to us again was that in our entire conversation we kept saying planetary this and planetary that but we kept thinking about human suffering like what about the experience of the more than human world like like I mean right now we live on a planet where most of the uh of the fauna are domestic we don't really have that much natural uh biodivers biodiversity left right what does that drama feel like what does it feel like to have an entire habitat taken away because we loged the hell out of it because we wanted to I don't know build an installation at Burning Man like you you know what I mean right like it's it's the it's these weird Dynamics where we where where we keep centering human pain and a specific kind of human pain right and like what about the planet what about the experience of the planet there's a lot of times where people are like oh no no no the planet can survive the planet survived for billions of years you know all of us are going to die but the planet will be fine but I'm just like it's not that simple massive populations are going to die there are going to be entire E I mean we talk about climate change itself as a as a as an issue that's going to disadvantage human beings but sure it is but we are destroying these other creatures and their their entire livelihoods so like I guess that's kind of what we were trying to point at and just to sort of close this discussion I know this conversation has sort of gone all over the place but that's really what we were trying to get at grief is a systemic thing right instead of diagnosing individual cases and trying to solve for individual cases which is how pharmacology seems to work right now and even these sort of uh like Val was mentioning these monetized healing practices like you just need to meditate and become one with yourself and all that [ __ ] like that's sure you're going to feel better for the evening but that's not really going to solve the real issue right like if I've broken my leg I could take a painkiller but that's not going to make my leg heal right and that's kind of what this what we're doing even in terms of how we're dealing with grief right now and the sort of Mental Health crisis around the world and all of these related things we just try to solve we just try to negotiate that that uncomfortable experience we're not dealing with it Sy systemically and we're not thinking about what this is going to do to the Future like let's think about this another way what about the pain of our of the future of the people that live in the future are we not going to consider that because so many of our actions today are going to affect them right like we keep complaining about the generations before us you know that you guys [ __ ] [ __ ] up for us like Greta's out there doing the good work for all of us telling them you [ __ ] the planet up for us right we're probably doing the same thing for future generations and I think these are Big questions and these are hard to make sense of but I wonder how even our academic Frameworks might shift if we actively try to acknowledge and Center these experiences and decenter our own you know very well put this has been an episode of many rants yeah but very important ones none nonetheless very important ones um be purely because of time let's end with ask ask asking the two of you uh first let's first let's ask the two of you where can people read your work where can they reach out to you if needed um and what what they can expect from your work in the in the let's say the next four five six months so we kind of touched about what our future goals are um we're pretty expansive at this moment we're considering a lot of avenues um Beyond just publication so I think if you are simp maybe if you read the article and you you hear us ranting and you kind of identify with that or feel like your research aligns in some way um we love to take people who are passionate um that simply even just want to be a part of the discussion um and then we kind of work as a collective so it's not really like PR I telling anyone what to do specifically it's more coming with an idea pitching it and then we sort of as collective support each other in that way um so with that being said we're very open-ended and Prateek do you want to sort of share how to reach out to us that's probably best yeah I mean you can find us on Jungle publics.com uh which leads to our substack right now but that's sort of our home base uh for the timing and I think that might be the best place to reach out to all of us um and to give you sort of a taste we also have an instag which is I think instagram.com jungle. I think that's what it is um but I guess in terms of what we plan to do moving ahead I mean there are lots of different things we're working on right we we mentioned the residency as one thing and Sor we' we've talked about doing a a podcast series a sort of limited podcast series of our own but in terms some of the ideas we're exploring um I mean the the the grief work is one sort of angle and that itself is sort of uh forking out into many things on on one hand we're trying to think about social codes and rituals and understanding [Music] um whether the rituals we've had in the past do to make sense of these feelings of mental disregulation maybe they're either inadequate or maybe we forgotten them something what rituals and social codes that were very interested and we're trying to think about and that's a a whole sort of research project that we're working on right now with a lot of uh colleagues from the UK and Netherlands and here in India and at the same time Val's working on this piece about thinking about was zic in a systemic way and understanding what that does in terms of all sorts of things um you know questions about perception questions about what sort of social value you have questions about how these manifest in in Pharmacology and what we really think of think consider as being healthy or or fit um and um you'll notice that a lot of ideas that we discuss touch the scientific touch the the sort of touch like really material questions of healthcare and stuff like at the same time we we do venture out into the larger immaterial World We Touch into a lot of Concepts from the the humanities and specifically from anticolonial discourses uh and I guess this is an open invitation to other people that if this is the sort of thing you want to do and this we understand that this is a difficult thing we to do um our ambition is to horse space for those sorts of slightly ambig uncertain conversations with the sense that you know we're not going to resolve anything but at least if we begin to build the capacity to hold it maybe we might over time you know develop like a a new sensory ability or something like that I don't know but we've done we've done a lot more in a lot less time in the past even if you just think about how quickly we shifted as a society after covid right who would have thought that everybody would be so okay doing everything virtually and having these meetings right and now it's it's second name nature so you never know um and that's kind of that's kind of the direction we're trying to head it incredible well uh thank you guys very last question which we ask all our guests so both of you can take turns at this if you have one piece of advice for our listeners what would it be probably the toughest question of the moment that is so hard thinking um okay I can try I think my advice to our listeners is to become better listeners I think um because I think at the at the root of this crisis and really at the root of even the questions you're talking about in Academia is that we don't listen and we don't listen deeply enough and we have many biases in how we listen we have these filters in our mind right and I think yeah if you can get better at listening and being mindful of when your own bias enters the conversation listening without the intention of responding but listening with the intention of trying to make sense like doing it like in a in trying to sort of have a relationship with what the person is saying I think that's the sort of skill we need today um you know that's probably much more useful like that's that would be my that's a really good one and laid off of listeners which is why I was giggling um you want further follow us like follow subscribe do all this things support us that's how you become the best listener actually is by subscribing contributing to the [Laughter] patreon okay something I've been thinking about a lot so be my piece of advice is that um self authenticity is probably one of the most like radical forms of protest so really digging deep and doing the things that you're scared of because they feel right to you but maybe are misunderstood at the time do it do it and follow the trail awesome great pieces of advice um so thanks guys for coming on that was really fun I know we we could have spoken about a lot more things and gone in a lot more details sorry for rushing you guys at the end but yeah NE need to stay true to form and keep the episodes under an hour and a half is what it is fair uh yeah hopefully you guys can come back on I look forward to the next few pieces and then we can talk about those ones and get delve deeper yeah thanks for having us this is great this is a lot of fun so much yeah this is thanks everyone for listening so see yeah take care guys bye all right bye bye[Music]