#39. Reimagining the Role of the Catholic Church - Geo Robrigado

The Catholic church is the only religious entity to hold a seat in the United Nations through the Vatican city’s status as a state. Geo Robrigado, Law graduate and former President of the Victoria University of Wellington Student Union, speaks about his research in law, international relations and politics focusing on how the Catholic Church maintains its political relevance. We go through the influence of the church and how it has been evolving over time to cater to the new generations. Covering historical examples of how the church has embedded itself into global politics, how it influences other religions and how it adapts to individual locations in order to extend its reach.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 7:23 The Catholic Church and Global Politics
• 14:39 Legal Implications of the Church in Philippines
• 24:30 Globalization of Inclusion and Exclusion
• 37:09 Glocalization and religion
• 49:26 Catholic resurgence vs other religions and atheism
• 1:12:16 Final statement and Wrap up

Transcript

0:00

let me let I'm I'm going to try to see if I can hit like a media the media intro I uploaded it. Let's see if it actually works all right cool that actually worked all right. I'll take that. work was it this short oh it's just like the I was readying myself to dance yeah I maybe I I need to make a longer one uh it's like a sample which sample it's a sample which I picked up from SoundCloud in 2022 when I first started doing this so that's what we use until we get something better or something longer but yeah one of us can date a musician and then you can get it for free yes that's the whole point speaking of free I've also started a patreon now because I am broke and I've been funding this myself the whole time and I think after 40 episodes we need to get better in terms of editing, lighting and so on so I have started a Patreon of course no content is going to be behind pay walls because the whole point is that everybody should have access to this. But if anybody wants to, you know, donate help out of course there's the YouTube thanks stuff as well but I think I need a few more viewers for that but yeah if you could chuck some money on patreon to support us that would be great. yeah with that let's get to the actual episode uh so welcome Geo and Feryl. Feryl was co-hosting again hello and Geo is our guest today so I'm going to give a little intro about Geo and he's already sweating a little bit so Geo and I go Geo and I go a bit back. We've been friends since undergrad uh have having said that before even meeting me Geo did a degree in statistics at oh, way back in the Philippines is that correct yes am I getting that right right so you did a degree in statistics then you got a degree in development studies the order is a bit messed up here but you got a degree in development studies you got a degree in law you've got you have a degree in international relations and you have a degree in politics. You speak about 13 languages at different proficiencies you have a you have eight uh eight okay okay eight it's it's gone down since we last met there is he has two YouTube channels one's about gaming he is a Formula One fan but he does not think Alonso but he does not think Alonso is good-looking so take of that what you will that is fact no no no that's that is he's on a league of his own though okay but who's who are you supporting right now sorry I'll let s finish the intro I I've always been a Mercers fan since I was a kid really yeah yeah that that German engineering right um yeah do you think signs will make a move to Mercedes sorry cut cut this up cut this up I am praying I'm trying too oh okay sorry sorry sorry okay I forgot what else I need to say oh no so the reason I got Feryl on and Geo on here is because Geo as I list it has expertise in many things he was also the president of the Victoria University Student Union for a while um he he's he's the kind of guy who's had his finger in many jars he's done so many things and his most recent project his master's project was looking at the role of the Catholic church in uh international relations and politics that's a kind of brief idea of it and kind of reimagining what it looks like because and I found it very interesting because of course we spoke to Professor Alberto Costi about international law and how that kind of works and some of the tenants of it before and Feryl's been on talking about religion in various different roles we've had guests on talking about the role of religion in society but then also I'm blanking on the name now when Hugh came on and spoke and spoke about Catholicism in Ireland and how the kind of entire political system was kind of influenced by that so and nowadays is what we see right like Islamic countries have certain Islamic laws Hindu countries have laws based on Hinduism so it kind of made sense to talk about the role of yeah the Catholic church or like the role of religion in kind of international relations and politics so that's why Geo's on that's why Feryl is on because maybe Feryl can give like a more social psyc kind of questions or more of the religion sociology side of questions to um yeah to Geo and we can learn a bit about yeah these kind of how these ideas and Concepts and behaviors kind of intermingle with each other so welcome Geo welcome Feryl thank you yeah you must be glad I could have got a lot worse with this because I've known you for so long I know what are the eight languages oh okay so um I'm native of bilingual in English and Filipino growing up in the Philippines yeah and then Spanish became uh some sort of like a natural progression just because Philip yeah is very much heavily Spanish influenced and then Spanish it became French became Italian and then became Portuguese and then I had this opportunity back in 2015 um to work in Poland as as an English teacher for three months and then that also gave me a chance to like visit Germany and Austria and kind of picked up German along the way on a visit yeah well I kind of I kind of prepared beforehand but um I was like okay this is my time to like brush up on German skills and things like that and then Dutch. Dutch was inspired by a common friend of me and Sayer like the guy that the guy that was the reason why sahir and I became friends yeah so um yeah um we go a long way and so oh you know what and I actually dated a Dutch girl before so kind of like you know that definitely helps yeah impress her with her language skill with my language skills the the dating didn't work out but the language skill language remain. I got I retained the language yep and then trying to learn a few more is that is that is that all eight I I said 13 because that's what you had on your your LinkedIn it said Proficiency in 13 languages to varying degrees read anyone's LinkedIn it's not always true I think it's be it became 13 because there were um there were certifications that got doubled ah all right right right yeah okay fair enough fair enough fair enough we'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one but uh let's talk about the actual your actual research project um so it so it is about uh the role of the reimagining the role of the Catholic Church um what do you mean by reimagining so we I guess we need to start from we need to start off I guess at the birth of Christ don't we or just after whenever whenever it actually became with wait wait I think the first question should be what has been the role of the Catholic church and then how are we reimagine it yet all right yeah yeah yeah sure um well it's actually funny because I wasn't when I when I started this project I wasn't really hellbent on reimagining what it what the role actually is. It's more like just understanding why in a world that seems to be secular or so-called secular there is still that power given to one religion you know like or one denomination you know I was making the comparison whereas know because the Catholic Church amongst all the Christian denominations the Catholic church has a state the Catholic church has presence in the UN so the big question for me is why is still that why is that still possible and then you know that that also that question as to the question of the presence of the Vatican as a city state that is actually owned by the Catholic Church like no other denominate Christian denomination no other religion has that status you know um every every major religion in the world has that like set Center like a holy city or something you know like Islam has Mecca but Mecca doesn't have that political Global political status compared to like the Vatican so I was really interested as to how like what are the mechanisms that allowed those things to flourish despite a secular what what seems to be a more secular Global Outlook . And then as I went on with my research I kind of what I started Gathering was the church is the Catholic church is um categorized in academic literature as a transnational entity which is defined as an entity that goes across different- operates among different states but still within the borders or like the confines of the state itself so you know like multinational corporations they operate in different countries but they still have to adhere to this to the National laws of that of every state that they work in. But what I notice is it doesn't really fit the Catholic Church you know that categorization doesn't fit the Catholic church. because like I said it has a state of its own. with the Vatican it it its influence goes beyond State confines so I was like wait a minute what is going on here. And when I went to the Netherlands last year for my Exchange program I enrolled in this class called Advanced philosophy of global law which like looks at from a philosophical.. legal philosophical standpoint how Global legal orders actually work you know like things like the UN or the World Trade Organization it's like how are they operating from a global legal standpoint without being confined by State apparatus and there that class or that course has a very or it's it's informed by one single Theory called the "globalization of inclusion and exclusion" by Dr Professor Hans Lindell who also taught that class and I was like while I was going through the class I saw like Snippets of how I could apply that theory to my project and so I started delving into Professor Lindel's Theory and it kind of It kind of fit so and because of that fitting of that theory I was able to unpack a different way of looking at the Catholic Church as a global not just not no longer as a transnational entity but as a global legal order so they're know in my research it seems like the Catholic church is no longer categorized just like a multinational company but rather a global institution with global with global legal uh influence just like the World Trade Organization or the UN so and that's how the reimagining came to be is because there is um there used to be a categorization in the academic literature that I inad inadvertently challenged and somehow it kind of worked so that's that's kind of like the gist of why why I call I titled my thesis as reimagining the role that's super interesting just before we I ask any more questions I just wanted to get your positionality like are you yourself Catholic and are you would you consider yourself to be religious yourself I am Catholic I identify as Catholic um and not just because not just because I'm Filipino growing up in a very Catholic background but yeah I've um actually I kind of found my belonging my sense of belonging within the Catholic church but having said that I don't consider myself religious okay or at least religious in the traditional sense that. I don't I don't go to church um regularly and I I kind of have my own way of practicing my Catholic faith yeah but there is Faith you do hold Faith yeah I do hold Faith so I just wanted to quickly like ask you did say that you know the church has like legal implications in terms of like the place in like in the places that exists in um so maybe can you give us a background in terms of like what were some of the legal implications it had in Philippines where You' where you were growing up or in the different places that you've lived just for context I mean I know that you know Sahir isn't Catholic but I am also not Catholic so I actually know nothing about how Catholicism um influences State I am now seeing how Hinduism is beginning to influence state-based decisions but I kind of grew up in a relatively secular space I mean you can argue that India was secular at one point um so so I actually don't really know how like the church can influence state I've only heard about it in theory so maybe if you can ground that for us some examples yeah it it is interesting because the Philippines is also well constitutionally and legally is a secular State yeah but but uh because of of we we were colonized by Spain for 400 years that's uh in a so much so that the Catholic church was is deeply rooted in Philippine Society and you would see in the legal implications of that having you know even even our politicians would always like use their personal faith to try to influence policy in in the in Parliament um there are also instances where like for example the 1986 People Power Revolution I wasn't born yet by by the way just just just learning from you know history books and stuff like the 1986 Revolution that toppled the dictator uh the Marcos dictatorship um was led by the Catholic church because back then because the the state was already like hellbent on maintaining one person in power that the only form of resistance that the people can hold on to was the Catholic church so and the Archbishop of Manila back then made calls to like there were there were there were already uh there was already a mutiny taking place uh among the military back then and the Catholic church was like uh the faithful should go and um protect the heroes blah blah blah things like that and thus and what was a call what was supposed to be a call for just a few people uh turned into like a huge rally of almost 20 million people that blocked the main thoroughfare of Manila and forced the and it forced actually forced the military of the government back then to step down support the people and then oust and then essentially ousted the dictator from power so that's how politically and legally powerful or influential I should say the Catholic churches at least in the Philippines and now we're seeing like um in in a lot of social social issues back home in the Philippines there's always that Catholic element um within the discourse you know like um the the Philippines is the only country in the world aside from the Vatican where divorce is still illegal oh really yes so and most people who are against divorce would you would always almost hear their reasoning being so Catholic or so Christian you know like marriage is between man and marriage is a God-given institution things like that and so from from there you would really see how deeply rooted Catholic Society is in the Philippines and that's actually part of the reason why I wanted to understand how that influence uh still is still going on because apparently it's not just in the Philippines that it's happening in the other side of the world in Latin America it's the same yeah so uh um so I could say that a lot of my questions that informed my research uh came out of like personal experiences um so would you consider Philippines theocracy or not really although you say it's secular but the influence is so high it does have it does seem to have vestiges of theocracy especially if you see especially during elections that people who are running for office would almost always seek the approval of the different major denominations in the country um cuz they feel that having the endorsement of a certain Bishop or a certain um certain influential religious figure is validation of their work so in a way we're we're not I I I I I won't go far as to calling the Philippines a theocracy but I think we are we we are on the way to being one because um so the episode which we did with Hugh about Hugh Turpin about Ireland and he said that because when because when I asked something similar he said that no we Ireland was never a theocracy because religion was just so ingrained in the entire thing that it never needed to be it's just that it was part of every part of education and daily life that it never needed to be a theocracy it was just the influence of Catholicism was so strong also when you were talking about the revolt after your dictatorship and the one Haven being the Catholic Church you see sort of shades of it in Iran in the revolution in Iran being like one of the one of the places which I guess the power coales around is uh well would you say the what's it called now the he's not the Ayatollah isn't it yeah um so that's like a Islamic example of the same thing where a dictator being overthrown but then power generally coalescing around religion yeah I think uh I think comparing to what Hugh was saying before about Catholicism's deep roots in Ireland I think why I was able to not go that far was the Philippines is still a multinational country and in the South you still have that very very strong Muslim majority regions because what happened during colonization is that the southernmost part of the Philippines was the last part of the Philippines to be colonized by Spain because the Muslim The Sultans especially uh the Sulu sultanate which was apparently one of the most powerful sultanates in Southeast Asia back in the 13th and 14th centuries they really resisted Spanish colonization except that Spain was more technologically advanced than than the sultanate so they were able to subdue the Muslim majority areas but it was like probably one of the longest arms armed resistance that the archipelago has seen in in its history ever since even before the the Spanish arrived that was like a really huge form of armed resistance that and up up until now there are still like vestiges of that armed resistance going on the Muslim Insurgency back uh down in down south has never been resolved  there were there have been peace talks and that's um already like in place but the question Still Remains and now with the entry of organizations like ISIL kind of complicates a lot of things so that's why I think uh that's I think one of the reasons why the the Philippines would make would be hard to turn into a full-blown Catholic theocracy. Interesting so should should we you've grounded you you've grounded us into examples using the Philippines of the influence of the Catholic Church you also mentioned a theory which you used in reimagining yeah you which you used in your project could you give us like a brief overview or an idea of what that theory was you gave me a name and I've forgotten it already sure so the the general theory itself is like uh Prof Professor Lindel's work on the globalization of inclusion and exclusion within that he excuse me he developed This legal model or a model of looking at legal orders uh which he calls the instit um wait I'm I'm going to like just look at my notes for for a moment institutionalized and authoritative or authoritatively mediated Collective action or for easier recall we call it the IACA model I A C A. So what this mean what is this is that what this entails is that legal orders especially Global legal orders um in Professor lindel's view is a species of collective action but what sets it apart from other forms of collective action is that it is it has Authority that is authoritatively mediated so there is like that vestige or like semblance that there is a group of people within the collective action that mediates and um forms the authority to make sure that the collective stays within the bounds of the collective action and then it's also institutionalized in the sense that uh there is a proper or like a specific legal structure that ensures that the collective action stays in place and at first I was like quite skeptical about using this Theory but the more that I read about the more that I researched about the actual structure of the Catholic Church um not just not just their um theological or not just their spiritual functions but they actually have this political and legal structure that defines what the Catholic church is so certain uh a lot of Doc documents that uh the Vatican has produced uh especially during the last ecumenical council which is the Vatican 2 back in 19 back in the 1970s it it doesn't it isn't it doesn't just serve as a Doctrine or uh or like a basis or constitution of the faithful but also has legal power because of the structure that was put in place millennia ago that allows the Catholic Church to be this not I wouldn't want to say monolithic but this this huge uh Global entity that is able to wield influence and therefore power that's super interesting and I think it reminds me of like my specialization which is cultural Evolution and the argument is that religions stay popular and stay relevant because they can evolve to the needs of the given community that they exist in and it's kind of really interesting to hear that there are like I don't know how to say it like there are actually like written codes the for the for the church to evolve and like kind of suit the need of the community like that's so smart thinking so much ahead yeah it is like and what my thesis like in in my research as well it I did not just like stop with categorizing the Catholic Church based on Professor Lindel's uh model but also I was also able to take it a step further and that's why my hypothesis I made my hypotheses like two pronged like the there are two mechanisms allowing the church to continually continuously um wield influence and Power in the global arena well one was that legally speaking it is a global legal order based on the on Professor lindel's IACA model but the second and what I found most interesting is that being a legal order allows the Catholic Church to essentially lead the world in this debate where secular and postsecular thought are clashing and therefore the Catholic church is essentially leading leading the world in in what we see as a Resurgence of religion in the global in the global Arena because if every it well this Resurgence actually started as a uh from The Clash of civilizations argument by Samuel Huntington but that was long that has long been debunked but however there are like still thoughts especially if you see in the global uh especially when you see it in the global South you know the the modern world in the in the north have always been saying okay you people in the global South we will make you like us we will make you modern we will make you Progressive but that promise has been broken time and time again and therefore people in the global South has started to like question the relevance of modernity and progress in their lives because of that broken promise that the only thing familiar to them that they can hold on to is religion and because of that the religion not religion essentially became if not complimenting the role of the state it actually replaces the role of the state you see in a lot of countries where because the state could not provide hospitals schools universities Parks most of these Social Services have been provided by religious organizations you know like correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard like in India there are Hindu run orphanages yeah and Catholic run orphanages Catholic lots lots of Muslim run ones as well like different denominations Yeah by because because the state has failed to deliver on the promise of modernization modernity and progress the church has been able to like or religions in general kind essentially replaced all these um roles of the state and therefore for for the people in the global South why am I going to listen to the state if they're not even providing my needs I'm going to listen to the church because they're the ones providing for me and so because of that people in the global North who has like been secular ever since the enlight en it's like no no no no no religion religion is irrelevant you should not be listening to them but hey and then the global South be like but you're not delivering on your promises and I need to survive so that's essentially there's now this debate between should we still remain a secular world if the promises of SEC the secular Promises of modernity and progress has already been broken and the the things that they have been promising since they were since the enlightenment was actually being delivered by non-secular organizations and because of that debate the Catholic church is like okay hold on hold on let's take it one step at a time but at the same time they're also like okay we're going to going to do this so that's basically that being a legal order in itself in this debate between secular and postsecular thought which is essentially allows the Catholic Church as a global entity to continuously wield power and even come back. I had argued that they were able to come back to the same level of power that they had during the Medieval ages when the pope is essentially at the top of the international hierarchy yeah very interesting very interesting points made because I like just to relate it to the literature that I know it's very closely related to why religion came to be in the first place like if you look at these big religions these especially abrahamic religions the idea goes you kind of as soon as we started Living in like these large larger and larger groups you kind of needed and there was no police there was no you kind of needed people to like self-correct and cooperate you know you needed to punish people who were like socially loafing and stuff like that and so the idea of like this omniscient God that is perennially perennially present that's punitive came to came into being so it's like God is always watching you and God will punish you and stuff like that which I think are tenants of the abrahamic religions and youall can connect me because I'm not abrahamic in faith but um but then slowly as these as the as we started developing States we had all these functions being taken over by the state you kind of didn't need God to be constantly watching you because you have CCTV cameras everywhere yep you don't need God to punish you because you have the police system and the legal system and stuff like that so as the theory goes if you see in like these super developed countries so Scandinavian countries where the state is really able to like you said meet on the Promises of modernity or take over the role of religion you see less religiosity but in spaces where like these functions are not properly or not universally provided by the state um but basically point being that whenever like it's it's around the same thing so whenever the State can't provide these functions that God is supposed to provide religiousity is really high so I think you're really like like it's really true and on the nose like on the money what you have theorized but my question then is it's like when you speak about like this Global legalization and stuff like that I don't know maybe this is unrelated but have you heard of the term glocal yes like you know like McDonald like it has glocal marketing it has Global Concepts but relates to like local ideas and stuff like that but yeah the idea of glocal marketing and stuff like that do you find that within the church like this idea of being glocal to remain relevant in different yes actually that that that term glocal or glocalization is a huge part of Professor lindel's Theory as well and are um within the Catholic Church even though they have their own like legal structure they have their own political hierarchy and even though they are well outside State confines they still make it a point to localize themselves you know um because within within the Catholic the simple hierarchy is in the Catholic Church that you have the pope and then and then each um countries have their arch dases up up until like the very uh local level which is the parish and you would see in this par in these parishes or even in the higher level which is the diocese that they still even though they are for they are just mandated to follow the the Catholic Church's own hierarchy they still make it the point to blend themselves in within the within the locality that they're working on socially culturally even politically and legally um what I see here is that for the church because they also had experienced this point in time where they were largely irrelevant globally and if they keep on insisting at this point in time if they keep on insisting that they are superior to the because back then especially in the Medieval ages um the law of the church is way different from the law of man so there's always that distinction but now what what they're seeing is we will lose our relevance again if we keep on insisting that the law of God is far superior to the law of man within their within the doctrine it would still be that way but we have to also adapt to what uh to how our local community um works or operates and therefore that that's how you see the globalization taking place within the Catholic Church um and You' see especially in like so I'll I'll use the Philippines again as an example um parishes are usually for every town or every village there's a there's a separate Parish that's how large the Catholic Community in the Philippines is and you would see that some Catholic practices in one Village differ from the Catholic practices in another Village and you'd see that in a lot of especially with the local Village fiestas or some or things like that how they celebrate is very very localized even though it's seen as a Catholic tradition how they celebrate is very very attuned to the local culture and the local needs of the needs of the local people and so there's no there's no Village Fiesta or town Fiesta uh that are exactly the same in the Philippines even though it's root its tradition is rooted in the Catholic tradition and um and you would see that as well um um legally speaking uh if you see some of the uh legal documents of the Catholic Church before before the before the second ecumenical council of the Vatican it is a requirement that mass is said only in Latin but now because of the gloal because of globalization the church has allowed priests allowed parishes to have masses in the local language and now especially with uh this huge Global phenomenon we call migration uh where um parishes in say for for example here in New Zealand um where there's like a um where the Filipino Community Filipino Catholic Community is um getting bigger and bigger uh almost every year a lot of parishes here in New Zealand offer masses in the Philipino language and so that is that also allows the globalization of the Catholic Church also allows the Catholic Church itself be uh to actually wield further influence globally speaking or in the global Arena because um especially with migration itself like these migrants bring their uh bring their own faith their own culture through the host country and you would see that in country in host countries that have huge swathes of migrants from largely Catholic countries from the global South that the Catholic church has re flourished and I think it's um I think it's true if you see like uh huge migrations of country of people from Muslim do dominated countries you would see a flourishing of Islam in that host country um when I was in the Netherlands last year most uh mosques are abound in almost every city because there's like huge Turkish Moroccan um migrant communities that are predominantly is uh Muslim so you would see like a lot of this um tenets of Islam that kind of seep in um into the local community and therefore for the Catholic Church having that because they have this Global hierarchy or This Global structure they kind of use all these happenings within the local level to actually wield even more influence globally in the GU of saying that we have this huge diaspora in the entire Glo in the entire globe that we have to like pastor and look after um I was gonna I was going to ask what about uh other denominations of Christianity how do they play into this uh I'm guessing of what's it Evangelical Christians in the states or Anglican the Ang church is the church in the UK um does the Catholic church in any way wield any influence on these groups or not really. I'd say yes or no yes in a in the sense that well I I'll start with the no it's easier it's easier to uh respond to no because well historically speaking these all these other Christian denominations uh were created be as protest against the influence of the Catholic Church yeah but at the same time how in this at this point in time the political Le and legal influence of the Catholic church is much more wielded in issues that have a universal effect like human rights climate change um you'd see like especially with Pope Francis like almost every papal bull and Papal exhortation that the current pope has released has has a call for call to action to resolve climate change to resolve human rights violations and so even if you are a non-catholic you kind of resonate with all these things that the church is saying because you're also affected by it and so the political and legal influence of the church right now is no longer the same as before in the sense that if say if two kings are disputing a parcel of land it's the pope who would intervene. so it's no longer that deeply that kind of political but rather the pope having especially with the Pope having this huge influence as the leader of the Catholic church and a head of state in himself being the head of state of the Vatican he is in a position to influence global social issues especially climate change so and because that resonates more with more people compared to like conflicts like the high level stuff that's how the Catholic church is like wielding its influence like it starts it starts small it kind of like starts small but goes bigger and bigger as the issue gets bigger and bigger. All of the points that you've said like kind of make a lot of sense especially since Pope Francis because yeah you've seen him come out and mention yeah human rights um he turned a lot of a much softer tone on the lgbtq community I remember that because that was i' I remember a lot of Christians or like saying Christians is weird but like very devout very devout religious figures being strongly opposed to his statements when he came out and said it but you can see the as you said moving changing with the times kind of molding yourself to what popular sentiment is even if it is against the initial religious Doctrine and yeah it it seems like a good way to kind of stay in power and in good graces of a lot of people yeah you've been talking about a Resurgence of religion which is interesting because that's I guess I mean yes right-wing religiosity is on the rise but at the same time atheism is also on the rise and a lot of it has to do with you know the sexual abuse that has been rampant within the church yes it's glocalizing but is it staying up with modern times and terms of you know lgbtqia rights you know about other stuff so um I just want to know you know how in your opinion is the Catholic Church still relevant in light of all these events how do you think these events are influencing the church's I guess legal prowess across the globe you know or its influence do you think I I actually have a sorry to continue the do you think because of these things it's slowly moving back from Like This Global legal organization to this transnational organization where it just becomes a part of a country rather than the main influencing body of a country. Yep um it's it's actually a very interesting question that I did mention in my thesis that we have to delve deeper but I did touch on it uh quite briefly where and that's that that is actually the part where uh especially with the cases on the on the child abuse things like um from a political standpoint it is like it it does diminish or act at least question The credibility of the church and a lot of people have fairly questioned the church as to how dare you say these things about human rights blah blah blah if you cannot uh fix your own uh problems you know like that Adge that says fix your fix your own backyard first before you fix others backyards but having said that one of the huge.. one of the huge tenants or actually the main tenant of Professor Lindel's theory was these Global legal orders are within a framework or actually facilitates this framework which he calls the globalization of inclusion and exclusion where his argument is because of globalization where legal order in in in the attempt of legal orders like the WTO and the Catholic church in their attempts to include everyone they are inadvertently excluding people um I remember in class Professor lindel always uses the example of the Karnataka State farmers where because the WTO wanted to include them in this legal trade in this legal order of trade um they found the Karnataka State farmers found themselves actually outside that uh order of inclusion because they refused to they refused to use the seeds that were developed by Monsanto because of like different issues so in in the sense of um the Catholic church and the uh especially with the child abuse cases. There have always like there have been numerous cases like cases in court that went through that says because the Catholic church is a state of its own it has State immunity and we cannot therefore we cannot litigate this issue because they're not within our jurisdiction and therefore because of that the victims that were supposed to be included in this legal like this legal order that was created by the cic church suddenly felt excluded because they cannot can no longer find Justice because of this issue of immunity so and that's a really interesting Dynamic that in a way also becomes inclusion and exclusion within the church in itself um what I mean by that is they are trying to include themselves in This Global legal Global political legal Arena and this realm of globalized of a globalized world and that's why they're trying to say but that but there are issues that they are really really uh they really have a Hardline stance on that inadvertently excludes them again from the from this Global Arena and so this that's what I said was like an interesting Dynamic that needs further uh research and development um in that area but at the same time it it seems it's as if because they're trying to uh create these areas where people are included whether you're Catholic or not we want to include you but that they also find themselves excluding other most especially those who were already included to begin with. So that's a very huge Dynamic that still needs like much more deep deeper thought. I did want to pick up on that because you did you did speak about inclusion exclusion but the second part of Feryl's question was that religion in general the Dynamics of religion have changed a lot since the Holy Roman Empire and even and so how how do you actually kind of tackle the role of the Catholic church when I guess Islam is soon to be the largest religion I think Sunni Islam as a particular sect is the largest religion how do you uh.. how does the Catholic Church kind of side in the fact that there's a lot there's a bigger pitch for Evangelical Christianity in the US in the halls of power there and they kind of use that link as the one for a lot of decision- making particularly on the Republican side um so yeah so how do all these things with all these other growing things with the rise in atheism as well um mostly as a rejection of Catholicism based on colonization to a large extent in New Zealand and few other countries where there's indigenous communities with with all with all those things how.. doesn't it look that generally the power of the Catholic Church even though it is a state and has State immunity is kind of waning yeah that's that's really uh that's an interesting aspect that um I let me just pull the papers out yeah pull the papers out yeah that's that's actually interesting given that given given what you said about like you know um questions about other religious gaining ground and you know questions um I kind of I kind of grounded my argument on that on Jürgen and what what Habermas was saying is that so he was looking at he was looking more about religions in general but I was able to apply it to to the Catholic church so one of the he has three phenomena that he observed contributes to like a a growing Resurgence of religion the first one is that um because of there's a lot of um the first one there's a lot of conflicts in the world happening right now and even if they even if it's not really religious um it's not really a religious media would always portray it as a religious conflict case in point the current situation in Gaza where it's not really Islam versus Christianity or Islam versus Jews but they but the media has been portraying it as so and because of that portrayal um because of that portrayal people all started questioning did religion actually uh become Irrelevant in the first place and and because of that questioning for the Catholic Church they they found it as a way or like a hole to poke through to start um making moves on influencing grow Global discourse in a way that does not really hurt on other religions sensitivities like um for example in in in the in the question of conflicts um Pope Francis has in in one of his exhortations Pope Francis questioned  is it is it really Humane for anyone to take uh to to continue being uh oh wait sorry I'll I'll rephrase that I I'll I'll I'll quote him directly what would induce anyone at this stage to hold on to power only to be remembered for their inability to take action when it was urgent and necessary to do to do so so he was grounding it in he was grounding it in such a way that from um by ref referencing uh verses from the Bible but he delivered it in such a way that it didn't sound fully Catholic at all and so um and so because of those like very well-crafted um statement ments questioning like you would um one would then have a perception that okay um this Pope and by extension the church is also taking our side even though we're not Catholics is also taking our side and ensuring that we remain as Humane as human as possible in the eyes of the world and that resonates a lot with even non- Catholics another one is that and another one that allows it that despite this um despite all the rise of atheism as well uh another reason that the Catholic Church still has that power or that influence is migration um a lot of Catholic majority countries are in the global South same same is true with um a lot a lot of Islam majority countries or Hindu majority countri or religion majority countries in general but because of when when these people migrate they don't just leave their culture behind they bring it with them and part of their culture is their religion and these migrants ensured that what while they don't while they don't force the host country to adapt their religion they want to make sure that the generations that come after them would keep the same culture and traditions including religion and and because of that um it's what I would it's what I called the Grassroots movement of the Catholic church with uh and how they influence and um wield power because these migrants are religion is so ingrained in them personally and they want to make sure that their next of kin their next Generations would keep the same Faith would keep the same Traditions that essentially becomes the Grassroots movement that the Catholic church needs or wants in order for their influence to even become more Global and because migrants are now everywhere um that move that Grassroots movement has become a little bit more faster so despite the rise of Atheism in general despite Evangelical Christians um taking in uh reigning in power in say the United States or other places the we we cannot we really cannot uh dismiss the power of the of the Grassroots movement and that is where the Catholic Church really hits it home. In your opinion and this is maybe connected to your positionality about religion like I guess the nature of religion is also changing it's not just the role of religion but the nature of religiosity is also significantly evolving um there are newer religions like you said you have faith but you aren't religious you don't follow the you know like the behavioral practices that come with being Catholic and stuff like that do you think these changing behaviors that are related to religiosity especially the Catholic church do you think they have an impact on how influential the church will be in the coming years with more and more people yeah yeah oh yeah sorry sorry yep but definitely definitely um and that goes back to how that also goes back to the Grassroots power of the church that I was talking about one concrete example that I can think on top of my head head is back in the 80s back in the '90s when I was still kid you couldn't the only in in Mass right or in in Services the only instrument you could hear is the pipe organ or any other organ and for a lot of young people now it's boring it's boring hearing that but now you could hear holy masses or services that are festive in nature you would hear like full bands orchestras um and that kind of that kind of strengthens especially young people's perceptions of how how it is to be Catholic because the nature of religion now especially Catholic Church their nature is now evolving in such a way that we are adapting to the changing of times not not possibly not doctrinally but how we express that Doctrine um if you remember the movie Sister Act with Whoopie Goldberg where vaguely well okay so sister um Whoopie Goldberg is a lounge sing the character of Whoopie. Goldberg is a lounge singer witnessed a witnessed a murder and as part of the witness protection program she was hid by the police in a Convent that was dying um but because she want because she found a sense of purpose and understood the evolving nature of the community around her she injected so much life that the church the the church used to have like five people going attending Mass every week the church started becoming full again and it's those kinds of like it those it's actually those small changes that help make the Catholic church in particular much more relevant a lot of people understand that the Catholic Church probably won't change its stance won't change which won't fully change its stance on LGBTQ issues, euthanasia, abortion but being able to welcome people who think differently is a huge step forward already for the Catholic church and that's how they're able to maintain that influence because they are able to become more inclusive but again at the same time that also excludes other other sectors but what's important what I see is uh working well is that those who are actually being included are the future Generations the the generations that would one day lead the church in one way or another and because they felt that sense of belonging already because of the Changing Times like um for me like for me personally um even though I said I wasn't religious I found my sense of belonging within a very particular Catholic group um which um and that's why I resonate a lot with them um I I'm a huge I'm a huge fan so to speak of the Jesuits the Society of Jesus uh which was uh founded by St Ignatius of lyola because their brand of Catholicism is very very attuned to the Modern Times And um yeah they still do um back in back at home they still do a lot of um these Catholic things in fact the second largest university in the Philippines is owned by the Jesuits but their brand of teaching is not traditional so to speak and that resonates a lot with todays students so to speak like I have a friend who's Muslim who studied in that University and he said that his favorite class is Catholic theology just because just because the professor who's a priest is such a fun guy a fun teacher and at the same time he felt like he wasn't excluded from the discussions just because he was Muslim. Like the priest was actually asking him about his perspective to make the discussion much more livelier and much more well-rounded and for him that's something that for him that's something that most religions should emulate um being able to um get perspectives from other religions in order to make your own religion the perspective of your own religion better and it's something that I think not not the entire Catholic Church is good at theing but there are certain uh pockets of resistance so to speak within the Catholic church that has been doing that and so I'm kind of hopeful about the future of Catholic of the Catholic church in religion in general cool thank you so much Sor you you can have the floor now with whatever you want to say I've been stopping Sahir from letting you do that for a long time now yeah what was your question I was so deeply uh engrossed in the last question so I was like what were you asking again no no no it it was just it was because we've come to about an hour and we usually start wrapping up about now so that was a thing if there were any key sort of tenants which you wanted to cover of course we didn't go through the entire history of Catholicism but people can look it up and things like that but what were some of the key takeaways from your thesis which you want to um which you would want to like give out before yeah we wrap up cool um I think I think I would just read my closing statement in the te because that's that's uh apparently the examiner the examiner's favorite part because I said that um society and the global environment are Dynamic and Ever Changing and as we navigate further the tension between the secular status quo and this Resurgence of religion and post secular thought we need to further understand how this new perspective of looking at the the church especially in the context of global Affairs uh not only because I think there's I think there is a huge um what how would I say this like there's a huge value in understanding this new perspective or new role of the Catholic Church um in terms of not only understanding the intersections of law politics and religion but also the broader dynamics of the world we live in so it's not just like what I was offering with this thesis is not only a reimagining of the Catholic Church within the Realms of politics and law but also a different way of think of understanding and thinking about the world that we live in especially now that um now that um a lot of issues that we are facing have whether whether it's true or not have these vestiges of religiosity that either is true or the media just wants to portray as true but having this perspective did allow me to understand further the world I'm living in and hopefully as I try to develop this uh argument even further maybe that's a different way of looking at the world so yeah very nice I think that's a good good thing to end on on your conclusions um very well it was very interesting uh than yeah you I kind of saw the shades of many sort of religions in it while you were talking and sort of like the same thing across the board and yeah that kind of interaction between politics and religion and migration and so on so that was really nice the last thing which we ask is if you had one piece of advice for all our listeners what would that be oh oh big question oh oh stay warm for my listeners in India don't listen to him it's 44 degrees in Hyderabad in New Zealand it's freeing I'm dying yep for for the listeners in India stay hydrated awesome but yeah uh thanks Gio thanks froh um than you very much uh yeah and everyone thanks for listening take care bye bye