#60. Psychopathy, Relationship Satisfaction and Career Success - Aaron Hissey

Individuals' psychopathic personality traits can have negative effects on the people around them. Aaron Hissey of Victoria University of Wellington discusses his research on whether the negativity of someone's psychopathic personality crosses over to their partner and then spills over into their partner's workplace. We discuss some of the incredible associations he found including some potential benefits of dating a psychopath.

Read the article here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39928490/

Anatomy of a Psychopath: https://smoothbrainsociety.com/2022/04/29/2-the-anatomy-of-a-psychopath-associate-prof-hedwig-eisenbarth/

Chapters

• 0:00 Understanding Psychopathy: Traits and Interests
• 3:41 Focus on Psychopathy in Romantic Relationships
• 10:21 Complex relationship of Psychopathy and Career Success
• 20:48 Short and Long term impacts of psychopathy on relationships
• 35:37 Understanding nuances of psychopathy
• 51:38 Can you identify Psychopathic traits in partners?
• 58:00 Wrap up

Transcript

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Welcome back everybody to the Smooth Brain Society.

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I am Sahir.

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Today we are joined by Aaron Hissey.

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He is a doctoral researcher and trainee clinical psychologist at Victoria

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University of Wellington.

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His interests are personality stability and change,

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personality measurements,

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psychopathy,

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narcissism,

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and clinical psychology.

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He is here today to speak to us about how psychopathy can impact romantic relationships.

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So Kia ora, Aaron, welcome onto the Smooth Man Society.

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Kia ora, thank you for having me.

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And for those who are new,

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for those who've been here before,

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I repeat this every time,

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but for those who are new,

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the whole point of the show is to get some co-host on who has no clue about the

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subject whatsoever.

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Today,

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MJ has graciously stepped up to be that person for us and sort of helped the

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conversation go along.

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So I'll let MJ introduce herself.

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Sweet, thanks.

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Yeah, I'm just an average student from Vic as well.

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Here to learn more about psychopathy.

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Yeah,

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I'm doing my master's in urban planning,

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so a very different field,

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but very interested to hear what Aaron has to say.

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Yeah.

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No, awesome.

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And if people want to hear about psychopathy in general,

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our very second episode was with Associate Professor Hedwig Eisenbath,

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who is Aaron's PhD supervisor.

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Is that correct?

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Yes.

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And she spoke about psychopathy in general.

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And then this allows us to discuss a little bit more into the depths of like sort

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of the relationships of psychopathy.

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We're in romantic relationships in this case.

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So yeah, thank you again, Aaron, for coming on.

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Thanks, MJ, for volunteering for this.

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And yeah, let's get into it.

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So I guess the very first question to ask you, Aaron, is why are you interested in psychopathy?

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Maybe what is psychopathy and why are you interested in it?

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So psychopathy is a group of traits that tend to cluster together.

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It's characterized by things like superficial charm,

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manipulativeness,

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a lack of empathy,

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impulsivity,

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and antisocial behavior.

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And I'm interested in that because I've just always been interested in personality

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more generally,

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how people think,

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feel,

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and behave more generally.

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And I've always been interested in kind of, I guess, the darker side of personality.

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we would deem to be socially more negative.

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And yeah,

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when I started researching psychopathy,

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I realized that there was a bit of a gap in the literature,

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the research about what it means for the people around those with higher

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psychopathic traits.

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So,

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yeah,

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that's kind of what got me down this path of looking at romantic relationships,

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because the question I had when I started looking into this area was,

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what does it mean if your partner is high in psychopathic traits?

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Are you going to be better off, worse off, or is it a bit of a nuanced, complex picture?

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No, cool.

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So why did you pick like romantic relationships in that regard?

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Is there a particular reason for that or is that more that that was the one that

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you're the most interested in compared to,

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say,

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when we think about psychopaths,

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we usually think about it in terms of,

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you know,

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like workplace or crime or things like that.

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So relationship seems a bit different.

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Yeah, a lot of the research looking at psychopathy has been on individuals.

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What does it mean for themselves?

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But that kind of makes sense.

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It's a good place to start.

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Yeah, what does it mean for their outcomes, their workplaces?

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And because there is,

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I guess,

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a lot of people that are in the kind of criminal justice system that have higher

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psychopathic traits,

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it makes sense to want to explore that.

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But yeah,

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for a lot of us,

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our romantic relationships are some of the most important and impactful ones that

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we'll have in our lives.

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And so, yeah, I was just interested in those that have higher psychopathic traits and partners.

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Yeah, what could those impacts be?

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No, very nice.

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So how...

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I guess when you talk about romantic relationships or romantic partners,

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is it sort of different from how someone like normally would think about it?

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Or is there like a sort of,

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when you're studying these things,

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is there like a sort of confine which you have to sort of make to decide this is

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considered a romantic relationship,

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this isn't?

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Um, no, for the kind of research I've been conducting, it's kind of self-identified.

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Um, you know, we, we seek to recruit people that are in romantic relationships.

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So however it's defined, um, yeah, by the individuals that that's kind of what we're looking at.

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Yeah.

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Oh, easy.

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Uh, all right.

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So let's, uh, let's get to like what you actually research.

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How would you actually do that?

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How would you, I assume that

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people who self-identify that they're in a romantic relationship,

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but they won't self-identify that they're a psychopath.

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So how does, yeah, how does that part of the study work?

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So, yeah, for my research, I'm interested in a community sample.

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So,

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you know,

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people out in the community and as psychopathy is kind of like a dimensional trait,

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It's not something that you either have or you don't have.

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You know, it's not like you're either a psychopath or you're not.

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It's something that everyone has to one degree or another.

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And most of us tend to be at the lower end of the spectrum.

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But, yeah, there are people all across the kind of continuum.

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And so when it comes to recruiting, I can just, yeah, recruit anyone from the community.

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And I'm looking at more the relationships that if psychopathy increases,

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say partner wellbeing decreases.

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So I'm looking at general relationships between these types of variables.

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But yeah, you're right.

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Psychopathy,

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people with high psychopathy traits,

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I should say,

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can lack a bit of self-awareness.

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And it's not something that a lot of people probably consciously think about.

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Or maybe they do, I don't know.

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Have you ever thought about, am I a psychopath?

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I don't know.

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It's like when you let your intrusive thoughts win and then you're like, am I a terrible person?

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But yeah,

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there's some interesting points,

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I guess,

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about psychopathy in relationships that's worth mentioning first is that kind of

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the wants and needs and the behaviors of people with high psychopathic traits do

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tend to be a bit different within relationships.

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So with the wants and needs for most of us, you know, entering into a romantic relationship,

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We're after someone,

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you know,

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to travel through life with and,

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you know,

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that can support us in times of need,

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someone that we're happy to support in times of need.

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And we're looking for us, you know, to establish a strong emotional bond with that person.

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People high in psychopathic traits aren't really interested in those things.

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It's much more transactional.

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What can I get out of the relationship?

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And what that...

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could be uh could vary quite a lot from person to person but it could be things

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like money sex um a roof over their head someone to um you know provide for them um

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but yeah it tends to be a little more um yeah what can i get out of the

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relationship

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And then as far as behaviors go, they tend to be more destructive too.

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So at first, people with high psychopathic traits can be charming, exciting.

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There's research that shows accounting for a lot of other things, they can be more attractive.

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So there can be a bit of an aura around people with high psychopathic traits,

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but it doesn't usually take too long until kind of that veneer kind of crumbles a

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bit and people see that after a while they're not as committed to the relationship

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and they're much more likely to lie,

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cheat,

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gaslight their partners and even emotionally and physically abuse them.

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So generally, yeah, people with high psychopathic traits are

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want something a bit different out of the relationship and,

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you know,

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can employ some pretty negative behaviours as well.

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Do you think like the negative aspects of that are quite intentional or are they just like

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They're out to get something initially,

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and then those things happen as they,

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like,

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lose focus a little bit.

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Yeah, good question.

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Probably a bit of both.

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So there are two main subtypes to psychopathy.

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So there's the kind of...

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One that is based more around the interpersonal and emotional aspects,

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so manipulation,

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lying,

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a lack of empathy,

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cold-heartedness.

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That's kind of probably more the stereotypical psychopath or someone high in

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psychopathy that we think about.

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And there's also the second subtype,

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which is more around impulsivity,

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a lack of planning,

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selfishness,

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and antisocial behavior,

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and rule-breaking.

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Um,

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and so I,

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yeah,

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I think for those that are more of the kind of,

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uh,

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cold and calculating type,

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it then it there's probably a bit more,

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um,

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there could be a bit more reasoning or,

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um,

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behind that or thinking or,

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or planning.

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Um, and then for those in the kind of more impulsive type, it's probably a bit more reactive.

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Um,

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So let's get onto your research then.

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You already sort of mentioned that you sort of community sample kind of thing where

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you get couples,

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get people in romantic relationships in.

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So what are you actually looking at?

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So what was sort of,

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oh,

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you sort of showed,

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you said your interest,

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but what are you actually trying to look at and what are you trying to understand

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with your research?

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Yeah,

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so the first study of my PhD was building off the literature that was indicating

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that people with high psychopathic traits tend to contribute to more chaotic or

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maybe less satisfying relationships.

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I wanted to take that a bit of a step further.

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Could people with high psychopathic traits impact other domains of kind of

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functioning or well-being in their partner's lives?

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And for lots of us, work is a pretty important part of our lives and what we do.

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We get a lot of meaning out of it.

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So I was interested in, well, I guess at a high level, my kind of thinking was,

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People hiring psychopathic traits would contribute to a less satisfying home life

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or relationship.

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And then this could spill over to the partner's workplace and have an impact on

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their career success.

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So that's what I was looking at.

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And I was also building off research.

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There's been a lot of research looking at psychopathy for individuals in the workplace,

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but none looking at psychopathy in partners' workplaces.

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So interestingly,

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the literature on psychopathy and kind of career success is a little bit mixed.

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So I mentioned before the two main subtypes,

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those that were kind of more the selfish,

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impulsive,

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antisocial type tend to have worse outcomes in the workplace,

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more likely to be unemployed,

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earn less,

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contribute to a toxic environment,

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that kind of thing.

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But the type one,

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the more kind of fearless,

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dominant,

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kind of cold hearted,

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it's a bit more mixed there.

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Have you heard of successful, the successful

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No,

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no,

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I haven't,

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no,

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I haven't heard of that,

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but I was just going to say,

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I feel like if you're in business,

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for example,

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have being ruthless sort of kind of gives you that edge,

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uh,

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one way or the other.

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So yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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That's, that's it.

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So successful psychopathy or the concept came about a few decades ago and it was

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from research looking at CEOs,

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um,

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people in finance,

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even like surgeons,

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politicians,

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kind of these high level,

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usually high stress jobs.

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People in those types of roles tend to have high psychopathic traits on average

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than the general population.

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And the idea being is that there are some circumstances where,

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you know,

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being cold,

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calculating,

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maybe socially dominant can actually be an advantage.

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So, yeah, it's a really interesting field.

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And so,

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yeah,

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I just wanted to kind of do something similar,

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but look at the couple and see if there were any differences there.

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So just for a recap, so far you've said that psychopaths are generally better looking.

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I didn't say better looking.

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They can be rated as more attractive.

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Okay.

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So they're rated as more attractive and the odds are if they're pretty clear,

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if they have particular types of traits,

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the type one traits,

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then there's also chances of them being highly successful or at least in sort of

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like

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higher up on that sort of scale be it like surgeons politicians all that so looks

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at it if you're a certain type of psychopath looks like world's pretty good for you

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isn't it

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uh well yeah i guess the the research is showing that it's not all bad necessarily

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um or there are some aspects of um your life that having these types of traits may

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be advantageous to you i think generally speaking it's a negative thing for people

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and um it looks like probably for their partners as well but um

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Yeah, it's a lot more nuanced than that.

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So you wanted to look at sort of like how it affects partners workplace sort of thing.

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So how does that go?

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How did you do that?

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Yeah, so we use data from the New Zealand Attitudes and Value Study.

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So this is led by Professor Chris Sibling at the University of Auckland,

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but it's a collaborative project that includes academics from across Alcantara,

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New Zealand.

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And so we're able to use that data set and yeah,

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and that includes measures for kind of career success and relationship satisfaction.

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And my supervisor, Hedwig Eisenbath,

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created a proxy measure for psychopathy.

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So we're able to use this great data set to look at these things because it includes,

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I think,

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nearly 2,000 couples within the data set.

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But we were just looking at those that were both working.

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And so for individuals, we found that those with the higher

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impulsivity type traits tended to have lower relationship satisfaction themselves.

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And then that seemed to spill over and be related to lower job satisfaction for them.

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So that kind of aligns with the previous literature,

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but extends it a bit by indicating that kind of trouble at home,

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their less satisfying relationships also play a role and has an impact on their work.

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But interestingly,

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we also found that the more fearless and dominant type traits were related to

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higher relationship satisfaction,

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and that in turn was related with higher job satisfaction.

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So this is just for the individuals themselves.

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So that kind of aligns with what we would expect.

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But yeah,

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it indicates that their relationship plays a part in that link between psychopathy

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and work success.

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But then overall,

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we didn't really find many links between psychopathic traits and partners' career success.

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But then we ran a couple of other models where we expanded it out and looked at a

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few different ways of data.

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So this was a longitudinal study.

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And we found a few interesting findings.

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So firstly,

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the selfish impulsive traits was related with lower partner relationship satisfaction.

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over time as we would expect.

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Um,

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but then we also found that those same traits,

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selfishness,

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impulsivity was related with higher partner career success the following year.

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Um, so that was a unexpected finding.

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Um,

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and yeah,

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we had,

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we had a thought about more,

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I think about what could,

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you know,

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be causing them.

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It could be that perhaps,

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you know,

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they're,

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they are somewhat dissatisfied with the relationship or at home.

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They're trying to compensate by focusing more on work,

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or it could be that,

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you know,

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somehow or rather these traits are having an effect on their thinking or their behavior.

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So maybe they're more likely to take risks at work.

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You know,

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if their partner is saying,

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oh yeah,

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chuck in that job,

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go for that higher one,

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or,

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you know,

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really push for that promotion.

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It seems like something is going on there,

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at least in the short term,

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over,

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you know,

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a couple of years.

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psychopathic traits seem to have a little bit of a positive impact on the partner's

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career success.

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In your data, were the couples, was it the same couple in each wave?

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Or could it be that they were in a relationship,

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went out of it in the next wave,

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and then were in a new one?

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We were following the same couples over time, yeah.

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So these were couples that stayed together as well.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So that was going to be my other thing.

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Cause I assume that couples which rated low on relationship satisfaction probably

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would not last for the next year or,

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or did.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I,

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There is a link between psychopathy and shorter term relationships.

(00:19:30):
So they're just as likely to be in relationships.

(00:19:33):
There's no, I guess, strong link between psychopathy and being single.

(00:19:40):
But there is a link between shorter relationships.

(00:19:44):
So,

(00:19:44):
yeah,

(00:19:45):
the assumption is that,

(00:19:47):
yeah,

(00:19:48):
if people are super unhappy,

(00:19:50):
they're in a highly toxic relationship,

(00:19:52):
they're more likely to end that relationship.

(00:19:56):
um so yeah the the sample um here they they tend to be uh yeah quite longer term um

(00:20:06):
relationships um the sample we used is quite representative as well so we've got

(00:20:12):
quite a broad age range as well um

(00:20:16):
But yeah,

(00:20:16):
it,

(00:20:17):
it was a bit of a,

(00:20:18):
um,

(00:20:19):
somewhat surprising result in that psychopathy is often viewed as uniformly negative.

(00:20:24):
Um, but you know, it, it doesn't appear to be the case in the, in this particular circumstance.

(00:20:30):
And depending on the trait,

(00:20:32):
um,

(00:20:32):
you know,

(00:20:34):
if it's more,

(00:20:34):
the more selfish and positive type,

(00:20:36):
it tends to be,

(00:20:37):
um,

(00:20:38):
negative for themselves,

(00:20:39):
but it seems to have a bit of a weirdly,

(00:20:42):
at least in the short term,

(00:20:43):
um,

(00:20:44):
positive impact on their partners.

(00:20:47):
So you're telling me if I just up to certain psychopathic traits,

(00:20:51):
I could get my partner to get a better job,

(00:20:54):
make more money and I could chill.

(00:20:57):
That might be a bit of a stretch.

(00:20:59):
Uh,

(00:20:59):
but,

(00:21:00):
uh,

(00:21:00):
yeah,

(00:21:00):
that you actually raise an interesting point,

(00:21:03):
which is a really nice segue into my second study because,

(00:21:07):
uh,

(00:21:08):
yeah,

(00:21:08):
I had a similar question is,

(00:21:09):
well,

(00:21:10):
if we could bump up someone's psychopathic traits,

(00:21:12):
what would that actually do to their partner?

(00:21:16):
And it's not something we could feasibly or ethically do.

(00:21:22):
We could not recruit people and try and manipulate their psychopathy just to see

(00:21:26):
what it does to their partner.

(00:21:27):
Like that is just not a good thing.

(00:21:32):
However,

(00:21:33):
there are some statistical and methodological techniques we can use that simulates that.

(00:21:40):
So for my second study, I wanted to expand

(00:21:44):
the range of,

(00:21:45):
I guess,

(00:21:45):
well-being indicators we were looking at,

(00:21:48):
just beyond relationship satisfaction.

(00:21:50):
I wanted to look at self-esteem,

(00:21:52):
life satisfaction,

(00:21:53):
psychological distress,

(00:21:54):
like a broad range of things,

(00:21:57):
and try and go beyond kind of just looking at associations and correlations as well.

(00:22:02):
So, Professor Joe Bebulia at Tahirina Waka, Vic Uni,

(00:22:08):
is a big champion of causal inference methods,

(00:22:11):
and he has developed some very technical and complex models that allows us to

(00:22:19):
simulate experiments.

(00:22:20):
So while we can't manipulate in the real world someone's

(00:22:25):
um psychopathic traits what we can do is kind of what you're um alluding what

(00:22:30):
mentioning before is um if we've got a big data set and we use the new zealand

(00:22:36):
attitudes and values study data set again which has got you know um thousands of

(00:22:41):
couples in it um and we and it's been going for 15 years so we've got a really long

(00:22:47):
period of time we can look at and we've got all of this great data um

(00:22:52):
We can actually,

(00:22:53):
with machine learning and other techniques,

(00:22:56):
say,

(00:22:56):
if this person,

(00:22:58):
say,

(00:22:58):
scored six out of 10 in psychopathy,

(00:23:01):
what would happen if we increased it to seven out of 10 and then measured partner

(00:23:05):
wellbeing the following year?

(00:23:08):
Would their partner wellbeing go down?

(00:23:10):
Would it go up?

(00:23:11):
Would it stay the same?

(00:23:13):
And we can compare that to models where no change to psychopathy is made.

(00:23:19):
So that's, yeah, basically what we've done in this second study.

(00:23:25):
And we first ran a three-wave study where we kind of measured baseline variables in

(00:23:31):
the first wave.

(00:23:32):
In the second wave,

(00:23:33):
we increased one member of our partner's psychopathic traits by one unit,

(00:23:38):
measurement unit.

(00:23:39):
And then in the third wave, we looked at partner wellbeing variables.

(00:23:43):
And what we found is that looking at kind of the traits,

(00:23:47):
like the individual traits that make up psychopathy,

(00:23:50):
we didn't really find any kind of meaningful impacts on partner wellbeing.

(00:23:56):
But looking at psychopathy as a whole,

(00:23:59):
so all the traits put together,

(00:24:01):
we found that increased relationship conflict,

(00:24:04):
it increased partner anxiety,

(00:24:07):
and it,

(00:24:08):
strangely enough,

(00:24:09):
increased partner self-esteem as well.

(00:24:13):
So,

(00:24:13):
yeah,

(00:24:15):
we've found in a way kind of replicating what we found in the first study of a

(00:24:20):
strangely unintuitive positive impact over the course of the year.

(00:24:28):
And there could be lots of reasons for that.

(00:24:31):
It could be,

(00:24:31):
there's a like thing called social comparison theory,

(00:24:35):
which says that,

(00:24:36):
you know,

(00:24:36):
if you're around people that are,

(00:24:37):
you know,

(00:24:38):
you hold in high esteem,

(00:24:39):
it can have a positive impact on you.

(00:24:41):
And so it could be the case that if, you know, your partner, you know,

(00:24:46):
you know,

(00:24:48):
is more charming or,

(00:24:49):
you know,

(00:24:50):
the more positive aspects of psychopathy,

(00:24:53):
it could,

(00:24:54):
you know,

(00:24:54):
reflect positively on you or you could think,

(00:24:57):
oh,

(00:24:57):
you know,

(00:24:57):
I'm with this person and,

(00:24:59):
you know,

(00:25:00):
that's improved my self-esteem.

(00:25:02):
I feel better about myself.

(00:25:04):
But we don't actually know the mechanism.

(00:25:06):
That's just speculation.

(00:25:09):
But interestingly, we did a follow-up study looking at six waves.

(00:25:14):
So rather than just increasing psychopathy by one measurement unit for one year,

(00:25:20):
we did it for four years and then measured partner grouping in the sixth year.

(00:25:27):
And we found that the individual traits, there were lots of impacts that were genuine.

(00:25:34):
generally negative as well.

(00:25:37):
The kind of low stress,

(00:25:40):
low anxiety and low kind of depression type trait had a few positive impacts on

(00:25:45):
partner wellbeing,

(00:25:46):
so higher life satisfaction.

(00:25:48):
But generally, the traits had a negative impact on partner wellbeing.

(00:25:54):
And then looking at the kind of

(00:25:56):
global psychopathy construct again.

(00:25:58):
So all the traits clumped together.

(00:26:02):
They had worse outcome, partners had worse outcomes on pretty much everything we measured.

(00:26:06):
And the effects were much bigger too, including self-esteem.

(00:26:12):
So self-esteem for the partner went down over six years.

(00:26:18):
So what this study shows is that there's something about the convergence of traits.

(00:26:24):
If someone were to increase on all of them,

(00:26:26):
that has a much bigger impact than just some individual traits.

(00:26:30):
But then the harm to the partner really intensifies over time.

(00:26:35):
So while there might be a few short term,

(00:26:40):
well,

(00:26:40):
while there can be a few positive impacts on partner wellbeing,

(00:26:43):
especially over the short term,

(00:26:45):
so over a year,

(00:26:47):
the longer they're together, it seems like the worse the impacts will get.

(00:26:52):
Yeah.

(00:26:52):
Well,

(00:26:52):
I guess that sort of links into what you said about the likely,

(00:26:57):
the higher likelihood of short-term relationships in people with psychopathy,

(00:27:01):
right?

(00:27:01):
So I guess there's the shorter term boost,

(00:27:03):
but like the reason they're probably not having,

(00:27:08):
they're less likely to have long-term relationships are probably all those negative

(00:27:11):
things that you're seeing once you expand it out to four or five,

(00:27:14):
six,

(00:27:15):
seven years.

(00:27:16):
Yeah,

(00:27:17):
and I think,

(00:27:18):
you know,

(00:27:18):
that totally makes sense if,

(00:27:20):
you know,

(00:27:20):
based on their traits,

(00:27:22):
you know,

(00:27:22):
the veneer of,

(00:27:24):
you know,

(00:27:24):
they can be charming,

(00:27:25):
persuasive initially.

(00:27:28):
But yeah,

(00:27:29):
the longer you're together with this person,

(00:27:32):
yeah,

(00:27:33):
the more negative that relationship is likely to be.

(00:27:36):
And yeah,

(00:27:37):
the more likely you are to probably end the relationship or if you do stay there,

(00:27:42):
yeah,

(00:27:43):
the more impactful

(00:27:48):
And before you were saying that it also has negative impacts for the person with

(00:27:56):
psychotic tendencies as well.

(00:27:58):
Is that the case for them,

(00:27:59):
that the longer they're in a relationship,

(00:28:02):
the worse it is for them as well?

(00:28:05):
Yeah,

(00:28:05):
so we didn't look at that specifically in the second study,

(00:28:10):
although for the three-wave model,

(00:28:12):
we did run results looking at an individual's well-being as well.

(00:28:19):
And we found similar things.

(00:28:22):
So if psychopathy were to increase, it also has a negative impact, generally speaking,

(00:28:34):
satisfaction with the relationship as well.

(00:28:37):
So it's not just,

(00:28:38):
it,

(00:28:38):
it appears as though it's not just a bad thing for the partner,

(00:28:42):
but yeah,

(00:28:42):
for the person themselves.

(00:28:44):
Um, but yeah, that wasn't a particular focus of this study.

(00:28:47):
We were really interested in the partner in this case.

(00:28:53):
Um, so again, were you surprised by these results?

(00:28:59):
Uh, in the sense, were they like sort of different from what you were expecting?

(00:29:02):
Um,

(00:29:06):
Yes and no.

(00:29:07):
I was a little surprised by, in the three-wave study, the increase to partner self-esteem.

(00:29:15):
But I think in light of the types of characteristics that make up psychopathy, it isn't

(00:29:22):
like 100% negative or what society would deem to be negative.

(00:29:27):
Like there can be some aspects that can be positive in some instances.

(00:29:33):
So there can,

(00:29:36):
yeah,

(00:29:36):
I guess there can be some explanations for why we might then find some positive outcomes.

(00:29:45):
And yeah,

(00:29:47):
in a way,

(00:29:48):
it also wasn't surprising to find that the longer someone is in a relationship

(00:29:53):
have on them.

(00:29:54):
So there are other studies,

(00:29:56):
longitudinal studies that have looked at psychopathy and relationship satisfaction

(00:30:02):
as an example in couples and they've tracked that over time.

(00:30:05):
And generally, yeah, relationship satisfaction decreases

(00:30:10):
partner is and psychopathic traits so i guess this um this research supports and um

(00:30:18):
i guess expands um what what's come before and that it's starting to paint a

(00:30:25):
picture that yeah psychopathy isn't all bad but it generally is um and within

(00:30:30):
relationships the longer you're in that relationship the more likely the harms are

(00:30:35):
to be greater

(00:30:36):
Um, and it, but it doesn't just affect relationship satisfaction.

(00:30:40):
Um,

(00:30:40):
it,

(00:30:41):
it affects self-esteem,

(00:30:42):
life satisfaction,

(00:30:44):
anxiety,

(00:30:44):
and depression,

(00:30:45):
um,

(00:30:46):
like a broad range of things.

(00:30:48):
Um, yeah.

(00:30:51):
Was that,

(00:30:52):
was that different for like,

(00:30:55):
uh,

(00:30:55):
different types of partners or like,

(00:30:57):
was that just like broadly for like,

(00:30:59):
like what I mean is for people who have,

(00:31:01):
for the partners who have like varying levels of wellbeing.

(00:31:05):
Like did, were the effects different?

(00:31:08):
Oh, so we looked at kind of aggregated effects.

(00:31:10):
So we looked at effect.

(00:31:12):
We didn't look at individual couples and we didn't, um, I guess, try and group them by

(00:31:19):
type um it's just a general effect um yeah so generally speaking is psychopathic

(00:31:26):
traits increase um part of the world being generally decreases um and yeah that

(00:31:34):
includes those that were you higher and lower as well but that's a really

(00:31:39):
interesting point and they're

(00:31:42):
I would assume there could be differences in those that started off lower.

(00:31:47):
Maybe don't go down as much, but it could be the opposite.

(00:31:53):
Yeah,

(00:31:54):
like I wonder whether people with lower would like initially have like a higher

(00:31:57):
spike and then it would be like an even bigger drop or something.

(00:32:01):
Yeah, possibly.

(00:32:03):
But yeah, we just don't know at this stage.

(00:32:06):
There you go.

(00:32:06):
You have another study to do now.

(00:32:12):
But also very similar to what MJ asked,

(00:32:17):
what happens if both partners in a relationship are pretty high in certain

(00:32:22):
psychopathic traits?

(00:32:23):
Did that come up or have you read anything on that?

(00:32:29):
Yeah, so there was a bit of research looking at, you know, psychopathic traits within couples.

(00:32:37):
And it was a bit mixed,

(00:32:38):
but it generally seemed to indicate that the higher one partner is in psychopathic traits,

(00:32:43):
the higher their partner will be.

(00:32:45):
And that's what we've found in our studies to date as well.

(00:32:50):
The links aren't strong,

(00:32:52):
but generally speaking,

(00:32:54):
yeah,

(00:32:55):
people with high psychopathic traits do tend to gravitate towards or end up in

(00:33:00):
relationships with people that have slightly higher as well.

(00:33:04):
But in all of our models and our analyses, we've accounted for that within our work.

(00:33:15):
So,

(00:33:16):
yeah,

(00:33:16):
I don't want to get too technical,

(00:33:17):
but in our models,

(00:33:18):
what we do is they're dyadic,

(00:33:21):
which means we have kind of data for both members of a couple.

(00:33:26):
And when we put that into our models,

(00:33:29):
we include,

(00:33:31):
say,

(00:33:32):
both partners' psychopathy levels so that when we're trying to say,

(00:33:36):
does partner one psychopathy lead to partner two's wellbeing,

(00:33:40):
we've also got partner two psychopathy in the model.

(00:33:43):
try you know to account for that as well because yeah you could make the assumption

(00:33:48):
that those high on psychopathic traits are gonna not yeah that the impacts on them

(00:33:54):
would be less because they may be more resilient um to their partner's psychopathic

(00:34:00):
traits or they might not just care as much or um or alternatively

(00:34:07):
Uh, it, it, it could be worse.

(00:34:09):
Um, so yeah, really interesting questions.

(00:34:13):
Um,

(00:34:16):
yeah,

(00:34:16):
that we try and account for on our models,

(00:34:18):
but don't specifically try and explain if that makes sense.

(00:34:24):
Yeah.

(00:34:25):
Um, cause yeah.

(00:34:29):
Because I was thinking then,

(00:34:31):
it's like you said at the very start when you said a lot of the relationships which

(00:34:37):
are associated with the people high in psychopathy tend to be very transactional.

(00:34:42):
But then if both are pretty high in psychopathy,

(00:34:45):
then if both see it as a transactional relationship where they're mutually benefiting,

(00:34:50):
then they could probably perform better in theory.

(00:34:52):
Yeah.

(00:34:54):
than being any downsides, right?

(00:34:56):
Like if they're aligned, yeah.

(00:34:59):
Yeah.

(00:34:59):
If they're aligned, then yeah, that, that might totally work.

(00:35:05):
And yeah, if, if that works for them, then, you know, fair play.

(00:35:11):
Yeah.

(00:35:11):
This is a good business for that point.

(00:35:13):
Yeah.

(00:35:13):
I guess the problem is, is that generally speaking, it's, um,

(00:35:18):
Yeah,

(00:35:18):
it's probably less likely you have two people really high in psychopathic traits

(00:35:23):
getting together.

(00:35:24):
And then even if they do, it may still lead to problems anyway.

(00:35:31):
But yeah, fascinating questions.

(00:35:35):
I don't have the answers to them.

(00:35:40):
I think I should ask this because it's like a wide sort of data set.

(00:35:43):
When you're talking about partner one and partner two,

(00:35:45):
did you also look at sort of like gender or sex based differences or things like

(00:35:51):
that or nah?

(00:35:53):
In the first study we did where we actually kind of split the model or the

(00:36:00):
models by gender to see if there were gender differences,

(00:36:03):
either in psychopathy levels or the impacts that they could have.

(00:36:08):
And generally speaking, we didn't really find many gender differences.

(00:36:14):
And in the second study,

(00:36:15):
we included gender as what we call a covariate,

(00:36:20):
but we put it in there as a predictor.

(00:36:21):
We tried to account for it as well.

(00:36:26):
Yeah,

(00:36:27):
because the literature indicates that,

(00:36:29):
you know,

(00:36:31):
men tend to have higher psychopathic traits than women,

(00:36:33):
at least as far as,

(00:36:36):
you know,

(00:36:36):
the way we currently conceptualize and measure it goes.

(00:36:41):
But yeah, generally speaking, we haven't found like big gender differences in these studies.

(00:36:49):
They weren't like a big factor.

(00:36:51):
It went, I guess to say it goes both ways.

(00:36:56):
That's actually quite interesting, but also makes sense, right?

(00:37:00):
What do you mean by the way we currently conceptualize it?

(00:37:05):
Do you think that there's scope for interpreting it differently?

(00:37:10):
Yeah,

(00:37:11):
psychopathy,

(00:37:12):
like a lot of other kind of personality constructs like narcissism or even other

(00:37:19):
mental health constructs like depression,

(00:37:21):
they're kind of fuzzy.

(00:37:24):
And it's a bit different to,

(00:37:26):
say,

(00:37:27):
the medical field where if you've got a pathogen,

(00:37:30):
a certain virus,

(00:37:30):
then you've got this particular disease.

(00:37:33):
And it's...

(00:37:34):
in a sense a little more straightforward the kind of the cause whereas in the

(00:37:39):
mental health space you could really get into discussions about the philosophy of

(00:37:42):
science but um it's you know there's a lot of debate about whether you know that

(00:37:52):
these types of psychological things we talk about that like exist at a,

(00:37:57):
you know,

(00:37:57):
there's a fundamental essence or a thing that exists and we're just measuring it or

(00:38:02):
whether it's a bit more complex than that.

(00:38:05):
And so for psychopathy, yeah, it,

(00:38:10):
the borders of what it is,

(00:38:12):
what it includes,

(00:38:13):
the types of traits it includes,

(00:38:15):
the way you measure it.

(00:38:18):
Yeah, it's a little bit tricky, I guess is one way of saying it.

(00:38:23):
There's arguments that we haven't quite conceptualised it correctly or we're not

(00:38:30):
measuring it quite right.

(00:38:31):
There are lots of different ways you can measure psychopathy.

(00:38:33):
There are dozens of measures out there.

(00:38:37):
And just the fact that there are so many,

(00:38:42):
indicates that maybe we haven't got it quite right yet but the fact that they tend

(00:38:47):
to all relate to one another and it does seem to reflect something that exists

(00:38:52):
within people indicates that yeah there's something there um but there's probably

(00:38:58):
room for improvement in the yeah where you draw the border around psychopathy is a

(00:39:05):
little bit tricky and you could argue arbitrary but um yeah

(00:39:12):
So is it fake?

(00:39:14):
Is it just a name for a bunch of terms at this point?

(00:39:17):
No, no, no.

(00:39:18):
I would like to make the point that I think psychopathy reflects something about

(00:39:24):
human psychology that exists for want of a better term,

(00:39:28):
but what exactly it is and what it means and what leads to it,

(00:39:38):
yeah,

(00:39:38):
is a little less clear.

(00:39:39):
Yeah.

(00:39:42):
Yeah,

(00:39:43):
unfortunately,

(00:39:43):
in the,

(00:39:44):
you know,

(00:39:45):
psychological realm,

(00:39:47):
we usually can't point to,

(00:39:49):
say,

(00:39:49):
like,

(00:39:49):
yeah,

(00:39:50):
a pathogen and say that's the cause of something.

(00:39:53):
And anyone that has that has this particular,

(00:39:58):
you know,

(00:39:59):
disease or construct or,

(00:40:00):
yeah,

(00:40:01):
whoever you want to describe it.

(00:40:02):
So it's a lot trickier in this space.

(00:40:07):
But, yeah, psychopathy is a thing, I think.

(00:40:09):
Yeah.

(00:40:11):
Now,

(00:40:12):
but what you raised and what MJ also pointed out was,

(00:40:15):
is a key thing which is to have across sort of mental health disorders.

(00:40:20):
I think a very good example is autism, autism spectrum disorders, where

(00:40:26):
For years and years and years,

(00:40:28):
everybody thought it was like four times more likely to be found in boys,

(00:40:32):
males.

(00:40:33):
Oh, when you're doing animal studies, you thought it was like four is to one.

(00:40:36):
But it's because people are really, really poor at detecting it in girls.

(00:40:41):
And when you've started getting started detecting it better,

(00:40:45):
this sort of these ratios are now like sort of evening out.

(00:40:48):
And it's the same.

(00:40:49):
with ADHD and then the opposite when it comes to depression tend to see it higher

(00:40:56):
in girls or when you're doing animal studies in females but then again it's

(00:41:01):
probably because you're not detecting it right or there's certain things which you

(00:41:05):
probably consider it to be part of ADHD when it's actually probably a trait related

(00:41:12):
more to depression and boys or things like that which make it really sort of fuzzy

(00:41:17):
and hard and whether

(00:41:19):
And there's always that debate, right?

(00:41:22):
Yeah, there are historical and measurement issues at play.

(00:41:25):
It's the same with psychopathy.

(00:41:27):
So the first real big measure,

(00:41:31):
you know,

(00:41:32):
I can't remember when it came about in the 70s by Dr.

(00:41:35):
Robert Hare was the PCLR,

(00:41:37):
the psychopathy checklist.

(00:41:40):
And that was actually designed with a focus on men in prison.

(00:41:44):
Um,

(00:41:45):
and yeah,

(00:41:46):
it,

(00:41:47):
it took a long time before it started being validated in other samples and it's

(00:41:51):
expanded and grown.

(00:41:53):
But I think even to this day,

(00:41:54):
um,

(00:41:55):
the way we think about and measure psychopathy,

(00:41:58):
um,

(00:41:59):
yeah,

(00:41:59):
is influenced by those historical processes.

(00:42:02):
And the fact that,

(00:42:02):
you know,

(00:42:03):
it was initially looking at,

(00:42:05):
you know,

(00:42:05):
men in prison,

(00:42:06):
um,

(00:42:08):
may have an impact to this day.

(00:42:09):
And yeah, the way we think about and measure psychopathy.

(00:42:16):
Shall we move on to sort of,

(00:42:19):
you told us what you found,

(00:42:21):
but then,

(00:42:22):
and we kind of like joked a little bit about what does this mean?

(00:42:26):
But can you sort of expand on to like, yeah, what do these sort of these findings sort of mean?

(00:42:32):
What's the next study of your PhD or work?

(00:42:35):
And how does this sort of, yeah, what does this look in practice is what I'm getting into.

(00:42:40):
All right.

(00:42:41):
So I guess if I were to try and summarize these first two studies and what it tells

(00:42:45):
us is,

(00:42:46):
and yeah,

(00:42:47):
there's probably a little bit of reiteration here,

(00:42:49):
but psychopathy itself is nuanced and therefore the impacts of psychopathy are nuanced.

(00:42:56):
Generally speaking,

(00:42:57):
psychopathy seems to be associated with poorer outcomes for individuals in their

(00:43:02):
workplace and their relationships,

(00:43:05):
but not always.

(00:43:07):
In particular, the factor one type, they're socially dominant,

(00:43:15):
cold-hearted it can actually be advantageous in some circumstances and seems to

(00:43:21):
have some positive effects at least and that these can and that there can be some

(00:43:27):
positive impacts on partners too although these appear to probably be kind of

(00:43:33):
short-term bumps that over time kind of disappear and

(00:43:40):
yeah,

(00:43:40):
the longer people are in relationships with people with higher psychopathic traits,

(00:43:45):
the more likely their own wellbeing is to be impacted over time.

(00:43:50):
So my next study is where what I was also interested in was looking at,

(00:43:57):
I guess,

(00:43:58):
wellbeing and support within a more immediate context,

(00:44:04):
so acute.

(00:44:05):
So for the first two studies, I was looking generally

(00:44:08):
how does psychopathy relate to wellbeing in,

(00:44:11):
um,

(00:44:12):
you know,

(00:44:12):
within couples,

(00:44:13):
um,

(00:44:14):
my next study that I ran,

(00:44:16):
uh,

(00:44:16):
was looking at,

(00:44:19):
um,

(00:44:19):
the impacts of psychopathy on partner stress.

(00:44:24):
So, um, I was interested in looking at it in, so I guess to start from the beginning, um,

(00:44:34):
If people are in challenging situations, they tend to get stressed.

(00:44:38):
So say if you have to get up and give a big speech or you're undergoing a surgical

(00:44:45):
procedure or something like that,

(00:44:47):
you'll be stressed,

(00:44:48):
you'll feel stressed and physiologically you'll have a stress response.

(00:44:53):
But research shows that if you have your romantic partner with you providing support,

(00:44:59):
so let's say you're,

(00:45:00):
yeah,

(00:45:02):
let's say you hate the dentist and you have to go get all your wisdom teeth out and

(00:45:07):
you're really stressed and worried about it.

(00:45:09):
But your dentist says to you,

(00:45:12):
you know what,

(00:45:12):
you can bring your partner in and they can hold your hand and provide you with support.

(00:45:19):
The research shows that that'll actually make you feel less stressed, but also be less stressed.

(00:45:24):
So things like heart rate, skin conductance or how sweaty your palms are,

(00:45:30):
and breathing will be lesser.

(00:45:34):
But I'm interested in answering,

(00:45:36):
we'll try not answer the question,

(00:45:39):
what if your partner is high in psychopathic traits?

(00:45:42):
Will that benefit of having them there hold your hand during a stressful situation still hold?

(00:45:51):
Or will it not?

(00:45:52):
So yeah, I ran a study with a colleague of mine, Olivia Knox,

(00:46:00):
where we got people to come into the lab and we got them to do what's called the

(00:46:04):
cold presser test.

(00:46:05):
But what you do is you stick your hands into an ice cold bucket of water and it

(00:46:11):
hurts and it's a really,

(00:46:14):
but effective way of getting people stressed.

(00:46:16):
And then we ask their partner to hold their hand and provide them with support during that.

(00:46:21):
And what we're doing is looking to see whether if their partner has high

(00:46:27):
psychopathic traits,

(00:46:28):
whether their stress levels are higher.

(00:46:34):
Does that make sense?

(00:46:35):
So did you get these couples in and you'd know that the partner had psychopathic traits?

(00:46:41):
No.

(00:46:42):
So same with the other studies.

(00:46:44):
Um, you know, we're, we're getting people in from the community.

(00:46:48):
Um, and, uh, yeah, we're looking at more general relationships.

(00:46:53):
So as,

(00:46:54):
uh,

(00:46:54):
psychopathic traits increase in one partner,

(00:46:57):
what does it generally do with partner stress?

(00:47:00):
Um, so yeah, we're not specifically trying to recruit people high on psychopathic traits itself.

(00:47:06):
Um, because the way we're measuring it is a dimensional, um,

(00:47:11):
yeah, we're able to do that.

(00:47:13):
And I think it then means that our results are more generalizable to the population.

(00:47:20):
So we're not just focusing on couples that where one people is quite high in

(00:47:25):
psychopathic traits and maybe say the partner is lower because then,

(00:47:30):
yeah,

(00:47:30):
that would only really apply to those types of couples.

(00:47:33):
We're more interested in, generally speaking, what could happen out there.

(00:47:42):
Is there a fear,

(00:47:43):
though,

(00:47:43):
with sort of a study like that,

(00:47:45):
you kind of get into a problem of a sample who's going to come in,

(00:47:50):
like a couple who is going to come and take the time out of the day or whatever to

(00:47:54):
come in and do the study.

(00:47:56):
They're convincing their partner to come in as well,

(00:48:00):
which means probably they're in a good state of their relationship to begin with.

(00:48:07):
Aren't you sort of...

(00:48:08):
not intentionally,

(00:48:09):
but unintentionally kind of narrowing,

(00:48:12):
like down the sort of group where you're looking at.

(00:48:16):
Yeah.

(00:48:16):
So there is,

(00:48:17):
so yeah,

(00:48:18):
you're talking about sampling bias and yeah,

(00:48:22):
uh,

(00:48:22):
it is something we need to be aware of.

(00:48:25):
There's research that shows that,

(00:48:27):
um,

(00:48:27):
people that come into,

(00:48:28):
um,

(00:48:29):
you know,

(00:48:30):
the labs for,

(00:48:31):
um,

(00:48:31):
psychology experiments,

(00:48:33):
especially couples,

(00:48:34):
um,

(00:48:35):
they do tend to be,

(00:48:36):
overall better functioning,

(00:48:37):
happier with their relationships,

(00:48:39):
better settled,

(00:48:40):
um,

(00:48:41):
compared to,

(00:48:42):
you know,

(00:48:42):
the general population.

(00:48:44):
And then, you know, there's also the added complexity of psychopathy.

(00:48:48):
So if people are quite high on psychopathy,

(00:48:51):
they're also less likely to want to come into a lab and help out.

(00:48:55):
Um, uh, so yeah, it's, it does pose some generalizability issues, um, as well.

(00:49:05):
The best we can do is acknowledge those and work with what we've got.

(00:49:14):
I wanted to touch on something else which you mentioned earlier and it kind of got me thinking.

(00:49:22):
Because you had said you sort of like saw what if somebody increased their

(00:49:25):
psychopathic traits a little bit.

(00:49:27):
Can people sort of control that?

(00:49:29):
Is it a thing which you can switch on and off?

(00:49:38):
That's a really tricky question.

(00:49:40):
I wouldn't have thought that psychopathy is like a switch you can turn on and off.

(00:49:47):
My perspective is more rooted in personality theory.

(00:49:51):
So psychopathy is more of a stable way of thinking, feeling and behaving.

(00:50:00):
And therefore it's kind of difficult to change.

(00:50:05):
We do see that psychopathic traits are fairly stable over the life course.

(00:50:12):
Um,

(00:50:12):
but some aspects,

(00:50:14):
um,

(00:50:15):
especially those to do with antisocial behavior,

(00:50:18):
um,

(00:50:19):
decrease a little bit,

(00:50:21):
um,

(00:50:21):
as the person gets older.

(00:50:23):
Um,

(00:50:23):
but that could be more a function of,

(00:50:25):
you know,

(00:50:26):
physical capacity,

(00:50:27):
for example,

(00:50:28):
um,

(00:50:29):
or,

(00:50:30):
or other things.

(00:50:31):
So I, I don't know, uh, a really tricky question, but to try and summarize, I think

(00:50:38):
it's relatively stable,

(00:50:39):
but there are some things we,

(00:50:43):
that,

(00:50:43):
yeah,

(00:50:43):
there are some things people could do to reduce the impact.

(00:50:48):
So the,

(00:50:50):
Yeah, there have been some studies done in New Zealand.

(00:50:53):
I'm in time here at the University of Waikato has done some research with the

(00:50:59):
forensic population,

(00:51:01):
looking at treatments with people with higher psychopathic traits,

(00:51:06):
but focusing on,

(00:51:10):
I think,

(00:51:10):
impulse control or,

(00:51:12):
you know,

(00:51:13):
problematic behaviours.

(00:51:16):
And they found some interesting, you know, encouraging results.

(00:51:23):
But yeah,

(00:51:24):
I think if for individuals themselves,

(00:51:27):
I don't think it's something they can just switch off.

(00:51:37):
Yeah.

(00:51:38):
All right.

(00:51:40):
So to sort of wrap up

(00:51:44):
everything there's another question can you identify uh that you're dating that

(00:51:51):
your partner is a psychopath or like is high on psychopathic traits whoa um i think

(00:51:58):
it would be it could be difficult to tell um especially initially

(00:52:04):
or while you're in it.

(00:52:08):
There is some research that shows that people can be more objective in how they

(00:52:12):
view an ex-partner more so than they can view a current one.

(00:52:17):
Um,

(00:52:18):
and especially if they're higher on,

(00:52:19):
say more of the,

(00:52:21):
um,

(00:52:21):
factor one or type one type traits where,

(00:52:25):
you know,

(00:52:25):
they can be particularly charming and good liars.

(00:52:29):
Um, I guess there are some things you could look out for.

(00:52:34):
Um, so, you know, uh, didn't have a, you know, a big ego.

(00:52:39):
Um, do they tend to lie?

(00:52:40):
Do you think they're manipulating you?

(00:52:42):
Do they have shallow emotional range?

(00:52:45):
So maybe they, um,

(00:52:47):
equipped to anger but they don't seem to have high highs like joys and they don't

(00:52:52):
seem to have low lows feeling low they're kind of fairly stable do they have a lack

(00:52:58):
of empathy do they need constant stimulation and are they impulsive they don't plan

(00:53:04):
ahead are they kind of irresponsible or rule-breaking

(00:53:09):
I guess it's, yeah, they're kind of... That's a lot of things.

(00:53:12):
Yeah, there's a lot of things.

(00:53:13):
But yeah, in the course of my research, I've come across a few interesting tidbits.

(00:53:19):
And I don't want to say that,

(00:53:21):
you know,

(00:53:21):
if these things apply,

(00:53:22):
then your partner's high in psychopathic traits.

(00:53:24):
That's not what I'm saying.

(00:53:25):
These things are correlated, but they're interesting nonetheless.

(00:53:30):
Have you ever found yourself yawning when you've seen someone else yawn?

(00:53:35):
Yeah.

(00:53:36):
Like, yeah, it's called, yeah, like yawning contagion.

(00:53:39):
And there's a hypothesis that it's, um, a form of emotional contagion.

(00:53:43):
So you see someone do it and it's a bit, it's almost like an empathic response.

(00:53:48):
You yawn.

(00:53:49):
People high in psychopathic traits don't tend to do that as much.

(00:53:54):
Um, they also tend to blink less, especially in times of stress.

(00:53:59):
And, uh, they also tend to have a lower resting heart rate.

(00:54:04):
Um,

(00:54:05):
so,

(00:54:05):
but I,

(00:54:05):
I don't wanna say that if,

(00:54:07):
you know,

(00:54:07):
your partner doesn't catch your yawn,

(00:54:09):
if they don't blink much,

(00:54:10):
and if they have a lower,

(00:54:11):
lower resting heart rate,

(00:54:12):
it doesn't mean that they're high in psychopathic traits.

(00:54:15):
It just means maybe statistically speaking, they're more likely to.

(00:54:21):
I was about to say, careful, my, my resting heart rate's actually quite low.

(00:54:26):
Yeah.

(00:54:27):
Well, that's the thing, like athletes, um, and you know, there, there's natural variation.

(00:54:31):
So they're just,

(00:54:32):
relations, but yeah, kind of fun to think about and to look into a little bit more.

(00:54:46):
Awesome.

(00:54:47):
MJ, any final thoughts or questions?

(00:54:55):
I guess,

(00:54:56):
okay,

(00:54:56):
yeah,

(00:54:56):
if you find yourself,

(00:54:58):
or if you suspect that you might be in a psycho,

(00:55:03):
in a relationship with someone with high psychopathic tendencies,

(00:55:07):
given that it might be good for,

(00:55:10):
like,

(00:55:11):
it might be positive for the first little bit,

(00:55:14):
like,

(00:55:15):
what would your recommendations be going forward?

(00:55:17):
Like,

(00:55:19):
stay in that for like short term and then get out of there or just promotion then leave.

(00:55:28):
Um, yeah, it, uh, I don't know.

(00:55:32):
I,

(00:55:32):
I,

(00:55:32):
I feel like I'm not in a position to give anyone relationship advice,

(00:55:35):
but,

(00:55:36):
uh,

(00:55:37):
I,

(00:55:38):
I don't know overall,

(00:55:40):
um,

(00:55:41):
being in a relationship with someone with high psychopathic traits is more likely

(00:55:44):
to have a negative impact on you.

(00:55:47):
Um,

(00:55:47):
so I guess just keeping that in mind and most of what we've been talking about today,

(00:55:53):
we've been talking about general relationships.

(00:55:55):
So as psychopathy goes up,

(00:55:57):
it tends to have a worse impact,

(00:56:00):
but,

(00:56:01):
um,

(00:56:02):
yeah,

(00:56:02):
there's always like exceptions.

(00:56:05):
Right.

(00:56:05):
Um, and just because generally things, you know,

(00:56:09):
um, are related, it doesn't mean it won't for a particular individual.

(00:56:13):
So even bringing up a point you had before,

(00:56:16):
so here about,

(00:56:17):
um,

(00:56:18):
you know,

(00:56:18):
if,

(00:56:19):
if it works,

(00:56:20):
it could work,

(00:56:20):
you know,

(00:56:21):
a more transactional relationship may work for someone.

(00:56:23):
So therefore, is that a bad thing?

(00:56:24):
Um, arguably not.

(00:56:27):
So, um, yeah, I guess,

(00:56:30):
My final takeaway about being in a relationship with some of the high psychopathic

(00:56:35):
traits is just being aware that it's usually associated with kind of negative outcomes.

(00:56:41):
And yeah, just to be aware of that and to help that inform your own decision making.

(00:56:47):
Yeah,

(00:56:47):
because like you said,

(00:56:48):
it links to the other thing,

(00:56:49):
right,

(00:56:50):
that you don't really know until afterwards.

(00:56:55):
Well,

(00:56:55):
you're not likely to give your partner,

(00:56:57):
you know,

(00:56:57):
like the psychopathy checklist and say,

(00:57:00):
you know,

(00:57:00):
fill this out or,

(00:57:02):
you know,

(00:57:03):
one of the self-report measures.

(00:57:05):
Yeah.

(00:57:06):
Yeah.

(00:57:07):
So I guess that in a sense, you never really know.

(00:57:12):
I'm sure Buzzfeed has some sort of thing like that or stop for something.

(00:57:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(00:57:18):
Whether it's scientifically valid and reliable is a different thing.

(00:57:24):
Yeah.

(00:57:25):
Oh, true, true.

(00:57:27):
No, awesome.

(00:57:29):
Thank you so much, Aaron.

(00:57:30):
Thank you so much, MJ, for joining.

(00:57:35):
It was heaps of fun.

(00:57:36):
Very interesting.

(00:57:37):
The nuances were insane.

(00:57:39):
I wasn't expecting any of those things that you mentioned.

(00:57:42):
So that was heaps of fun.

(00:57:44):
Yeah.

(00:57:45):
And one last thing which we ask our guests,

(00:57:48):
to do is if if you could give your listener the listeners one piece of advice it

(00:57:55):
does not need to be related to psychopathy one piece of one piece of advice from

(00:57:59):
your life what would it be oh one piece of advice um you've really put me on the

(00:58:10):
spot uh yeah it's the hardest question we ask yeah i would say well

(00:58:19):
Speaking really broadly,

(00:58:25):
I guess engage in continual learning,

(00:58:32):
whatever that could look like for you.

(00:58:35):
For me,

(00:58:36):
it was going back to uni after a period away,

(00:58:39):
working in the public service to do my PhD,

(00:58:41):
but it could be engaging in a hobby or

(00:58:46):
you know, something like that.

(00:58:47):
I've, I've found, um, doing my PhD really rewarding.

(00:58:51):
Um,

(00:58:52):
and yeah,

(00:58:52):
can like just learning more about,

(00:58:55):
um,

(00:58:55):
human psychology has been,

(00:58:57):
you know,

(00:58:58):
really rewarding.

(00:58:59):
So I guess my advice would be to find something you're interested in and try and

(00:59:02):
learn more about it.

(00:59:04):
Awesome.

(00:59:05):
Awesome.

(00:59:06):
No.

(00:59:06):
All right.

(00:59:06):
Thank you guys so much.

(00:59:08):
Thank you everybody for listening and yeah, until next time.

(00:59:14):
Bye, bye, bye.

(00:59:16):
Bye.