#61. Memory and Healthy Ageing - Dr. Dorothy Tse

In the build to the International Festival of Neuroscience being held in Liverpool from the 27th to 30th of April, 2025. We spoke to Dr. Dorothy Tse of Edge Hill University about her incredible research aimed at understanding memory, preventing dementia and promoting healthy ageing. We speak about the Tse Lab's work in understanding how prior knowledge can help in developing new memories and the importance of public input in all their research activities.

Episode in collaboration with the British Neuroscience Association, Liverpool Neuroscience Group and The Brain Charity.

Public Events run by LNG: https://meetings.bna.org.uk/BYOBLiverpool/

BNA Festival of Neuroscience: https://meetings.bna.org.uk/bna2025/ 

Dr. Dorothy Tse: https://www.edgehill.ac.uk/person/dr-dorothy-tse/staff/

Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing the Festival of Neuroscience
• 5:04 Dr. Dorothy Tse's Background in memory research
• 9:01 Linking Memory to Dementia and Healthy Ageing
• 15:42 Role of the Brain in Memories
• 21:02 Factors Influencing Memory Retention
• 24:17 Implicit learning - the case of HM
• 28:34 Translational research: from Animals to Humans
• 38:59 Healthy Behaviors for memory and wellbeing
• 42:53 Public Engagement and Community Involvement

Transcript

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Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls and NBs, welcome back to the Smooth Brain Society.

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I wanted to just announce that we're doing something pretty cool for the next few

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episodes and hopefully in the long term because we have partnered up with the

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British Neuroscience Association and the Brain Charity and Liverpool Neuroscience

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Group for some upcoming events.

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And also more importantly,

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we have Bethany Facer who has joined the Smooth Brain Society team and is hopefully

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going to be on in a semi-permanent position co-hosting a lot more episodes.

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She was on as a guest a while ago.

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But yeah, Beth, welcome.

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Welcome to SmoothBrain Society.

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Thank you for having me.

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Hello everyone.

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I'm Bethany Facer.

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I came on before.

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I'm a

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final year PhD student looking at Parkinson's disease and I'm also the student and

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early career representative for the British Neuroscience Association.

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So what a time to join.

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Yeah, exciting.

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So could you tell us a little bit about sort of the British Neuroscience

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Association and the Brain Charity and all the other organisations and what you guys do?

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Of course.

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So I'll start with the British Neuroscience Association.

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So it is the largest organization dedicated to connecting and supporting people in neuroscience,

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from researchers to clinicians to students and industry professionals and all those

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who fall in between.

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It's got over 3000 members and they're basically all about making neuroscience more visible,

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inclusive and collaborative.

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But there's three main principles that they focus on,

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and that's informing,

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connecting and influencing.

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So we want to inform the public and policymakers about neuroscience and why it matters,

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connecting people across all areas of the field,

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whether it's lab research,

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clinical work or industry.

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and influencing decisions at national and international levels to make sure

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neuroscience has a seat at the table,

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shall we say.

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So this and the connection with that is at the end of April,

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the British Neuroscience Association are coming to Liverpool for their once every

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two year festival.

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And we have a whole host of fantastic speakers.

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So if you haven't got your tickets, do.

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And even if you don't have tickets or you're not a neuroscientist,

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There is loads of events for the public as well.

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And just to add to that,

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we will be interviewing a few guests who are speaking at the British Neuroscience

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Festival in the next couple of weeks.

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And then after that, as well as it goes on through the years.

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So that's probably building up hype in the next couple of years.

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So if people aren't around, it's a bit too late to come to this one.

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You guys can come to the next one and listen.

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Yeah, for the next couple of years.

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Yep.

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So as well as the speakers,

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a couple of speakers we're interviewing,

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we also have for the kind of the wider public,

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something called Bring Your Own Brain,

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which is ran by Dr.

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Susanna Walker from LJMU,

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the Paul John Moores University.

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This is where we're bringing lots of activities to the public, public interest.

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So this is things from comedy nights,

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neuro nights,

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what is blindness,

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a world unseen where people can kind of experience

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and kind of understand what people who are blind go through.

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And then we've got Remember Me, Memory in the Brain, which is about dementia and aging.

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And this is really to engage the public in neuroscience so we know that we can't,

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as neuroscientists,

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it's so important that the public understand what we're doing and why we do it.

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So like for the wider understanding.

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Oh, awesome.

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just a reminder for people that both myself and bethany will be performing at the

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comedy nights as well um on the 24th so you have two weeks from the day of the

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episode releasing to go get tickets for that if you're around the liverpool area

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hopefully or around england i'm traveling from glasgow so i hope people can travel

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from around the uk um

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But yeah, awesome.

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And Dorothy joined us.

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So people,

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the very first episode for the BNA,

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we're going to be talking to Dr.

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Dorothy Tse from Edge Hill University.

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Her research focuses on neurobiology of memory.

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So with a particular focus on understanding how the brain processes and retains new information.

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And she also collaborates with a variety of patient and public involvement groups

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and charities and

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to promote healthy aging and brain health and works with the British Neuroscience Association.

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So thank you, Dorothy, for coming on and welcome to the Smooth Brain Society.

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Hi, nice to see you all.

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Awesome.

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So, yeah.

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So very first question,

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I guess,

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because I gave a little introduction of you,

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but if you could elaborate a little bit more into the work you do and your role

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with the British Neuroscience Association,

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please.

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Sure.

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So first of all, thank you so much for having me here.

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It's wonderful to see you all.

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So my name is Dorothy.

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I'm a cognitive neuroscientist, and I'm also a reader at Church University.

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I lead a research lab that investigates memory, learning, and also healthy aging.

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So my work focuses on how different factors affect memory and information seeking.

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The factors include prior knowledge and also novelty and curiosity.

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So I'm really interested on how prior knowledge and how they shape what we remember

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and also how these processes change across lifespan.

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And I'm also particularly interested in developing behavioral tools that could

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bridge animal work and also to human memory research.

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that especially,

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you know,

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translating the insight into dementia and also age-related cognitive decline,

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because I think that is important,

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you know,

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to have both experiments like human working with human and also with animals.

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So this translational aspect is really important to my lab.

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And in terms of like working with the British Neuroscience Association,

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It's great because I also,

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as the co-chair of the BNA 2025 Life Festival of the scientific program,

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and we're really excited because it's going to take place in Liverpool very soon.

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And it's a really unique conference that brings together researchers,

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clinicians,

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people with lived experience,

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and also different charities and organizations,

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also industrial professionals and the public to explore the latest events in brain science.

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So we're really excited about that.

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great what's been your favorite part about organizing it dorothy oh that's not

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really yes it's i think that there are different um things that i really like i

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think first of all is that it's really good to work with the bna executive team so

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they are really amazing like from like louise and laura and everyone in the bna

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executive team and also working with the bna

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the program organizers, like the committee.

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So it's been great.

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So everyone is, you know, involved.

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And so,

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you know,

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from choosing who's the plenary,

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you know,

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to looking into the symposium,

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like,

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you know,

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judging the posters and everything.

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So it's really great.

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And I think one thing I really like is also giving opportunities for earlier career researchers.

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in the conference.

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So it's not just focusing on,

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you know,

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what is the latest neuroscience,

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like research,

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what is like the hot topic.

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It's also giving like early career research chances, you know, to shine to

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example with the symposium what we ask is that the co-chair need to be at least one

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of the like earlier career researchers so from speakers and also culture so i think

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this is a really good thing like to see in a conference that you're providing you

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know we're providing opportunities you know for earlier career researchers yeah oh

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that's really exciting and yeah it's so important that we inspire the young as the

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as the old have yeah and

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Is there any particular plenary that you're particularly excited for or could you

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not possibly say?

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Yeah, there's so many.

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And it's also,

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I think it's also depends on the topics that you're interested because we came

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across with different topics and we're hoping to give like the breath and breath,

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let us say,

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because this is a really big conference,

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right?

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So we wanted to cover, you know, from aging, you know, to neurodegenerative and also as

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personally i really like uh cognitive like behavior so we also wanted to make sure

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that we've got behaviors like um you know like symposium and also poster there so i

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think it's like a flavor of um different topics yeah yeah now well that's the

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breadth of topics and hopefully we can get people on to talk about each of the

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topics a little bit as we go forward

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Okay, let's focus on your work for a little bit.

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So you said two things.

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You spoke about dementia and you spoke about healthy aging.

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Could you please for me, because I have no idea, how do these link into memory?

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Because you said you would work on memory.

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Could you sort of explain what dementia is and then, yeah.

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Yeah, sure.

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So I think maybe I'll give it a little bit of background of what I was doing

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previously and what currently I'm doing.

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How does that link together with different topics from memory,

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you know,

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healthy aging to dementia.

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So I did my PhD and postdocs at University of Edinburgh.

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So back then I already really interested in looking into neurobiology of memory.

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and you know using different models you know to look into what's happening in the

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brain and how does that link to your memory and i'm also really interested in the

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behavior of it so what previously i used is a behavioral paradigm so imagine um

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like you're exploring a new city right okay so

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Am I understanding you're from Glasgow?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, so Glasgow in other words is quite close.

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So let's just say you have a really good map of Glasgow, right?

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And then perhaps Bethany have a really good map of Liverpool.

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So you have a really good prior knowledge of what's going on.

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And let's just say maybe I'll tell you there's a new exciting Japanese restaurant

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open in Glasgow.

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You may remember this information really quickly because you have a really good prior knowledge.

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However,

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if I'm new to Glasgow,

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if you tell me that,

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you know,

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it's like something like really exciting,

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open,

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I may not remember this information because I don't have like a really good memory

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or prior knowledge of that.

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So I'm really interested in looking into what makes memory last.

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So what factors contribute that?

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that's a slight important element for me.

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So that is what I've been doing.

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But since I set up my lab in Liverpool, I'm expanding, you know, using different models too.

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So in addition to the animal models I'm working with,

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like different communities and looking into how does that impact like human like uh

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yeah for this so and again like um i'm really interested in how does these factors

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you know affect like memory because the reason i'm really interested in is because

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um you probably heard of like when people and develop alzheimer's like or like

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having dementia and especially with alzheimer's maybe one of the first symptoms is

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that

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they have difficulties in remembering their way home.

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So maybe they go for a run and then they forgot, oh, where am I?

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Like how, why am I here?

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So like one of their early symptoms is like you have this sudden memory lost and

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also linked with spatial like navigations,

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like couldn't find their way home.

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So this is why I'm also really interested in how does that link with memory,

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you know,

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to Alzheimer's disease.

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Yeah.

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And in terms of how does that link to like healthy aging and in general,

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because I would like to promote brain health in general so that like if we live

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like having like a healthy life that hopefully it will slow down the decline with

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the cognitive decline.

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Yeah.

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So that is how like this elements like memory, healthy aging and also dementia.

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Yeah.

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I have a personal anecdote of this.

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So my grandmother's sister,

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she unfortunately passed away a year ago,

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but she had Alzheimer's and there's this now funny story in my mind of a few years ago.

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She was at the hospital and while

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my aunt went to pay the hospital bill in India.

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This elderly woman gets up, goes outside, grabs the taxi and leaves.

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And we all know at this point in time that she has Alzheimer's and everybody's

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worried where she is.

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And instead of going to where she lives now,

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she went to her old childhood home because she had a memory of that.

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Yeah.

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And I guess that links very well into what you were saying about having a map or

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idea of places you're familiar with.

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And then I think they had moved to the new house only three or four years ago.

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And although she developed Alzheimer's after she didn't remember that address, I didn't.

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Yeah.

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And I hear you.

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And a lot of people have really vivid memory of the childhood.

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For example, when I've worked with different patients and also carers.

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And when you start to play music, right?

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Like it's like from their childhood, they can sing like beautifully and remember all the lyrics.

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However, if you ask them, well, what did you have for lunch?

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Like recently, they will not remember anything like recent memory.

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However,

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they remember like where I lived like previously,

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like childhood and also like songs and also books and also

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language too so um if they spoke like a different languages when in this childhood

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they didn't remember that yeah yeah yeah oh that's super interesting uh is it i

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have a question uh question then because is it also this importance or salience of

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the memory so for example i probably don't remember my lunch from four days ago but

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i definitely remember the songs i used to sing as a kid

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Yeah,

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there are different factors affecting memory,

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so one of them was about pro-knowledge,

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so what we already know,

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right?

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And the other, there are so many factors, for example, one is novelty, right?

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So right now we're having a conversation,

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and you two may not remember what I'm saying,

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it depends on the context,

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right?

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Maybe by, I don't know, tomorrow, because, yeah, there's a lot of information here, right?

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However,

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suddenly right now at the same time,

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like maybe somebody not like all about door and then handed us like really nice

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coffee or lovely like brownies.

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And you may remember this moment better.

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And hence you may remember, well, actually there are these talk about like novelty, right?

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So because of this novelty surprising elements, hence you may remember this moment better.

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So there are like different factors affect, you know, how we remember things.

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And so we may remember maybe our first date or maybe like a birthday party that,

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you know,

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really good for us.

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So there are lots of like factors affecting how we remember things.

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Yeah.

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In general.

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And what parts of the brain are triggered during these novel events?

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Yeah.

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So probably most of people know that is the hippocampus, right?

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So the hippocampus is really important.

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like for forming like a short term memory.

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And also there are different studies to talk about how does that link with like

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long term memory.

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The other brain areas like involved is also like prefrontal cortex,

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especially making like executive decision.

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Okay.

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So when we talk about,

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oh,

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maybe how does prior knowledge influence like information seeking and memory.

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And there are lots of studies showing that profundo cortex and hippocampus are involved.

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And especially if you wanted to incorporate new information into prior knowledge,

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you have this really rapid memory consolidation.

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So both hippocampus and profundo cortex are involved, yeah.

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And so that's for making new memories,

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but I assume that older memories are ones which have remained.

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Are they stored in a different place?

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Yeah, this is a really interesting question.

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I think there are still a lot of research ongoing to look into this.

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Usually there's a very standard memory consolidation theory is looking into that

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when you have new memories,

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that hippocampus is involved.

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but then by times goes by like cortical regions is more important because like we

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say store the memory and then the role of hippocampus diminish.

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However,

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there is also study like,

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which is showing that multiple traits theory,

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which is about like both hippocampus and cortical errors that involve like even

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with remote memory.

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So there are different theories and I think neuroscientists still investigating,

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you know,

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what's going on.

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Yeah, and I think,

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What I would like to say one thing is that, which I've found it's really interesting.

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And when I teach students or like having seminars with the public,

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they also like to ask me,

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is that once you form a memory,

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is that always fixed?

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Is that like stationary?

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Is that you can't change it?

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And what would you both think about this?

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Like to say, if your once of memory is formed, do you think this memory stays all the time?

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I am convinced it changes.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And when I was back at university, we got told a story about cultural changes.

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When we hear a story on culture, we bring it over to how we would remember it.

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So maybe,

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I don't know,

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let's say,

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let's say they're talking about drinking in Japan and they talked about sake.

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we might remember it as wine these memories kind of like over overrided with like

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how we would perceive it rather than how that culture would perceive it so yeah i'm

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sure they can check like that that that's what our viewers like yeah so i think

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yeah but both of you are right and that's on their senses that like sometimes it's

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not like once this memory form is not like it's fixed it's not like stationary it's

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quite plastic what we say like sometimes when we relive it and

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it may change a little bit and also depends on the context, right?

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So it basically saying that it's the ability to change for the memory, yes.

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Yeah,

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I can see one place where this probably plays a big role is in the criminal justice system,

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right?

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With witnesses, if your memory changes.

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I remember Dr.

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Faye Skelton from Edinburgh Napier University came on,

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I think two years ago now,

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and she was speaking about memories and eyewitness testimony causing problems

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because of it changing.

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And that sort of blew my mind back then.

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That's also another reason why I remember that, yes, I'm pretty sure that memory changes.

(00:19:33):
It's not such a...

(00:19:35):
And wasn't it that language you used as well?

(00:19:37):
So when they were talking about when they were driving a car and a hit into

(00:19:40):
somebody was hit,

(00:19:41):
smashed,

(00:19:42):
tapped,

(00:19:43):
bumped.

(00:19:44):
And then they would say, how fast is the car going?

(00:19:46):
And some people would be like, tapped 15 miles per hour, smashed 30 miles per hour.

(00:19:51):
It was just that very change in language seemed to like ultimately viewed it.

(00:19:56):
Yeah.

(00:19:56):
I totally agree with both of you,

(00:19:58):
because I think,

(00:19:58):
Bethany,

(00:19:59):
you were referring to the Loftus study.

(00:20:01):
Like, Elizabeth's like, yes, it's really a classic study.

(00:20:04):
And I think that's also effects on the eyewitnesses, like, especially with the police.

(00:20:09):
Like, how do you ask, like, the witnesses questions?

(00:20:13):
So it's referring to both of your points.

(00:20:15):
Like, the key words that you're asking is really important.

(00:20:19):
So, like, how do you prime, like, you shouldn't prime the witnesses, right?

(00:20:23):
Like, yeah, so I think these are all...

(00:20:25):
and things that police is also looking into this you know what is the good way you

(00:20:31):
know not to influence the weaknesses but actually they

(00:20:35):
to say what they see yeah so i think that's like a lot of application you can see

(00:20:39):
that and i found that's really interesting too because now i am at the department

(00:20:44):
of psychology so um with my colleagues they have different um disciplinary but one

(00:20:50):
of them is like a forensic and also criminal so it's also really good to see that

(00:20:54):
how this you know memory applies to you know to different disciplinary yes yeah

(00:21:02):
So what is the reason for this though?

(00:21:04):
As a neurobiologist, why would our memory change over time?

(00:21:09):
I think this is a really big question and we're still trying to understand why.

(00:21:15):
I think for me personally,

(00:21:19):
I'm really interested in looking into how these factors affect each other.

(00:21:25):
because like it could be you know with emotion so sometimes you know when we're

(00:21:30):
really happy or when we're really sad we may remember this event like very vividly

(00:21:36):
in our own version yeah so i think this is something a lot of different factors

(00:21:41):
could affect you know how this that events goes and how this what's in your mind

(00:21:46):
yeah so i think this is like one thing is emotion and the other there are different

(00:21:51):
all sorts of factors like uh novelty and also curiosity so i think these goals like

(00:21:56):
hand in hand like with um if something that you're really interested in you may

(00:22:00):
want to find out more and then genuinely you're interested in in that and also

(00:22:05):
there are lots of individual differences because something that interests you both

(00:22:10):
may not be interested in me so i think there's a lot of individual like factors

(00:22:14):
there too yeah so this is a big question it's a really amazing question that i

(00:22:19):
think

(00:22:19):
A lot of neuroscientists are still looking into this, like, why?

(00:22:23):
Yeah.

(00:22:24):
Do you think that novelty can help preserve memory or do you think that it can help

(00:22:30):
people with dementia?

(00:22:31):
Does it help them regain their memory a little bit or help them remember things?

(00:22:35):
Yeah, that's a really good question.

(00:22:36):
I do think that novelty is a really important factor.

(00:22:41):
And that is also why I'm looking to the relationship of novelty and pro-knowledge.

(00:22:45):
So if you think about

(00:22:47):
It's like a U shape.

(00:22:48):
So sometimes remember better when it's a surprise element.

(00:22:52):
So give the example of,

(00:22:53):
you know,

(00:22:54):
like someone suddenly come in,

(00:22:56):
we gave us like all coffee at the same time.

(00:22:58):
So then we may remember this better,

(00:23:01):
but it's also at some time that if new information could fits into what we already know.

(00:23:06):
So, um, this is,

(00:23:08):
back again maybe when you learn like when you when we were small we learn um times

(00:23:13):
table right so maybe you learn like like two times table so that when the teachers

(00:23:17):
like teach you the four times table it makes sense let's make it easier for you to

(00:23:21):
learn so you can think about it's like a u-shape of like remember things so

(00:23:25):
sometimes maybe this factor plays like more important role and then sometimes will

(00:23:29):
be the other

(00:23:31):
So when we,

(00:23:33):
you know,

(00:23:34):
going to have workshops with the public,

(00:23:36):
like I think one of the questions I got asked most frequently is that,

(00:23:40):
how do I remember better?

(00:23:42):
Like, you know, like how do you remember things better, right?

(00:23:45):
So I think one of the things like you probably heard of a lot is like practice make progress,

(00:23:49):
I would say,

(00:23:50):
rather than perfect.

(00:23:51):
So like, I think it's also when you associate things more and it makes sense to you.

(00:23:58):
then it can help you to remember things better.

(00:24:01):
So I think that this association is really important.

(00:24:04):
And the other important element is that with novelty and curiosity,

(00:24:09):
this is something you're genuinely interested in and then it's easier to absorb.

(00:24:19):
What about... This came to me.

(00:24:22):
Is there anything of memory where you don't remember learning something,

(00:24:26):
but you have learned it?

(00:24:28):
Is that memory sort of different?

(00:24:32):
So,

(00:24:32):
for example,

(00:24:35):
I remember watching this documentary ages ago where somebody had...

(00:24:39):
I don't know.

(00:24:39):
Was it a brain injury of some sort?

(00:24:41):
But...

(00:24:43):
they remembered they remembered certain things with like if you gave them a puzzle

(00:24:48):
to do they do it faster each time but they had no memory of doing the puzzle before

(00:24:52):
or things like that so is that an actual phenomenon or is that was that just a

(00:24:55):
random documentary as always if i'm trying to understand you may remember is that a

(00:25:01):
document is about h.m

(00:25:04):
I don't know.

(00:25:05):
You need to help me.

(00:25:06):
You're the scientist here.

(00:25:08):
There's one really famous case studies,

(00:25:12):
and this patient is called H.M.,

(00:25:16):
and he previously has an epilepsy,

(00:25:19):
and a doctor would like to do the surgery to stop this epilepsy.

(00:25:24):
However,

(00:25:26):
back then with the techniques,

(00:25:27):
he's actually removed his hippocampus,

(00:25:30):
so damaged his hippocampus,

(00:25:31):
and then afterwards,

(00:25:33):
he is suffering like a very short-term memory.

(00:25:36):
So let's just say we're having a conversation,

(00:25:38):
he will not be able to remember that we have this conversation.

(00:25:41):
So every few minutes he will ask the same question.

(00:25:45):
So he didn't manage to, he couldn't like hold the conversation.

(00:25:49):
however what i think you were suggesting is that um with the working memory so

(00:25:54):
there is a mirror trace like test okay so basically you got like a mirror and then

(00:26:00):
you've got to look into the mirror and trace the stuff okay so um in the very

(00:26:04):
beginning you know he

(00:26:06):
he failed this test so he didn't do it really good however after day and day and

(00:26:10):
day like his actual working memory skills improved however if you asked him he

(00:26:16):
couldn't remember that like he was trained with this test so i think that just now

(00:26:21):
when you're mentioning this i just it makes me think of that this example i wasn't

(00:26:26):
sure is that the exact like documentary that you were watching but the idea is that

(00:26:31):
he managed to perform it

(00:26:32):
okay however he had no memories of you know remember like learning this like at all

(00:26:39):
and but you can show like with the data that's that he actually traced like the

(00:26:43):
stomach really quickly he actually knew he actually acquired the skills however

(00:26:49):
because of like he didn't have the hippocampus so he couldn't remember that

(00:26:55):
actually training actually happened yeah

(00:26:58):
So does that mean you don't need the hippocampus to learn certain things?

(00:27:01):
You still, like, need a hippocampus to acquire new information.

(00:27:06):
I think it's that with that working memory task,

(00:27:10):
like,

(00:27:11):
he's able to,

(00:27:12):
like,

(00:27:12):
doing this more by procedure,

(00:27:14):
like,

(00:27:15):
memory.

(00:27:15):
He's actually doing that.

(00:27:16):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:27:17):
But with episodic memory,

(00:27:19):
which is when we talk about,

(00:27:21):
like,

(00:27:21):
events happens,

(00:27:22):
you do acquire the hippocampus,

(00:27:24):
like,

(00:27:24):
for the episodic memory.

(00:27:25):
Yeah.

(00:27:27):
Yeah.

(00:27:27):
Yeah.

(00:27:29):
Was it a, did he have a lesion on both sides of his hippocampus or was it just the one?

(00:27:33):
Yes, yeah.

(00:27:35):
It's a medial temporal lobe, I would say, in general.

(00:27:38):
Yeah, which medial temporal lobe, like hippocampus is in it.

(00:27:41):
Yeah.

(00:27:41):
It's a really famous case.

(00:27:44):
You probably can have a look at it online.

(00:27:47):
Yes, it's a very important case in neuroscience.

(00:27:51):
Yeah.

(00:27:53):
I think I taught about it

(00:27:55):
a couple of months ago,

(00:27:57):
and when I learned about it quite a while ago,

(00:27:59):
I was like,

(00:28:00):
God,

(00:28:00):
is he really unhappy?

(00:28:01):
And he kind of basically, he was like, I'm not unhappy.

(00:28:06):
I kind of know what's going on,

(00:28:07):
but I feel like if I can help people stop this from happening again,

(00:28:11):
here to do that like i'm happy to do so yeah so i don't think he kind of like had a

(00:28:16):
very vague knowledge something was wrong and he was happy to help but apparently he

(00:28:20):
was just quite happy go lucky yeah and and i think he got a really good like remote

(00:28:24):
memory like things from childhood that he could remember yeah yeah yeah

(00:28:31):
Okay, I want to take a step forward and ask you about how you actually do this research.

(00:28:36):
So you did mention some tests.

(00:28:39):
I always am intrigued when people bring all these big machines and I know there's a TMS,

(00:28:45):
the one where you zap people in the head for a little bit with magnets,

(00:28:49):
the ones with all the cables come out,

(00:28:51):
the neurosciency stuff.

(00:28:53):
So how do you do your research when you talk about memory research?

(00:28:57):
I know you spoke about doing lab work as well with animals and interested in translational work.

(00:29:03):
So yeah, what does your lab do?

(00:29:04):
Yeah, it's like great questions.

(00:29:06):
Yeah.

(00:29:06):
And yes, it was like TMS.

(00:29:08):
And I'm thinking of previously,

(00:29:10):
you mentioned this like EEG too,

(00:29:11):
but I'll explain it a little bit more.

(00:29:14):
Yeah, so I previously, when I was in University of Edinburgh, I did a lot of like animal work.

(00:29:19):
So using behavioral stuff and also doing optogenetics.

(00:29:23):
So basically shining lights into different neurons,

(00:29:26):
like to activate or to deactivate them and also calcium imaging.

(00:29:31):
So implants like a mini like microscope into the brain.

(00:29:36):
And while the animal is exploring, like every record, what is going on with the calcium,

(00:29:43):
channels so and looking into what's happening in the brain like so this is like

(00:29:47):
very exciting because that gives us tools and opportunities looking to what

(00:29:52):
happened in the brain and also um behavioral wise what's going on

(00:29:57):
And since I came to Liverpool,

(00:29:59):
I expanded my field because I'm really interested in the translation of it.

(00:30:03):
And I think it's really important that we're able to apply what we learn into like

(00:30:08):
human because ultimately our goal is to contribute to human,

(00:30:14):
to improve our brain health.

(00:30:16):
and also well-being in general.

(00:30:18):
So that is what I started to work with different organizations too,

(00:30:22):
because I do think they are really important and also inform us what they actually

(00:30:27):
want to know.

(00:30:28):
So as a researcher, I feel like sometimes we have our amazing research questions.

(00:30:35):
So we have really unique fields and then we build up on,

(00:30:38):
oh,

(00:30:39):
this is great hypothesis,

(00:30:41):
great research questions.

(00:30:43):
And then I thought that, well, is that what the public actually wants to know?

(00:30:47):
You know,

(00:30:48):
is this something they really want to find out or is that only like researchers

(00:30:53):
want to find out?

(00:30:54):
And that is why I started to work with different organizations.

(00:30:58):
because um what i'm interested in is like healthy aging in general so i work with

(00:31:03):
like university of third age so u3a so there's a they are amazing like uh network

(00:31:09):
so they have like hubs throughout the whole uk so i'm

(00:31:14):
very sure that they have one in liverpool and also they they have maybe multiples

(00:31:17):
in in glasgow too so definitely i know that they have one in edward so the one that

(00:31:22):
i work with is with u3 orton and almsgar so that's where we we are like with the

(00:31:27):
university so they are very vibrant group and they're retired

(00:31:32):
people so usually 60 or 65 plus so and they really wanted to know the latest

(00:31:38):
research of health and well-being yeah so and that is why we have this like

(00:31:43):
co-creation idea so what is that about so um in the very beginning i will have a

(00:31:49):
consultation like period with them so they will let us know um what kind of

(00:31:54):
research area they would like to know more so

(00:31:57):
the topics and also research area is that from them it's not just from us so of

(00:32:02):
course i'm really interested in memory and dementia and however what kind of like

(00:32:06):
memory what like in the memory and also dementia they would like to know more so

(00:32:11):
it's driven from the community and i think this is really important and because if

(00:32:16):
when it's come from them they will be more interested and when we have the

(00:32:21):
workshops together it's very targeted to the communities rather than

(00:32:25):
know i talk about all the mechanisms of like a memory so and it works really well

(00:32:30):
so and we started this program now it's for three years now so i've got like some

(00:32:35):
funding and then we have this co-creation like with you three and it's also forming

(00:32:39):
a really nice professional bond because whenever that i go to the coffee morning i

(00:32:45):
feel like positive energy from them because they are really excited they will like

(00:32:49):
you know okay so what's going on what is the new research and yeah so we ran

(00:32:53):
workshops you know from different topics from like

(00:32:57):
physical activity for example we all know that physical activities i mean it's good

(00:33:03):
for like across life span right but what types of activities how long is that for

(00:33:08):
that target age group so they would like to know more so more specific to them so

(00:33:13):
we've got like physical activity we've got emotions so like um um as you know from

(00:33:19):
since covid you know a lot of

(00:33:21):
all the participants, all the adults, they feel quite isolated.

(00:33:26):
Okay.

(00:33:26):
So after that, you know,

(00:33:28):
what how can we help them to um form the community better again yeah and also um

(00:33:35):
after retirement some people may feel like the shift of focus is different so maybe

(00:33:41):
previously like you've got like you focus on your work a lot right but now after

(00:33:45):
retirement then like unless you have a really good hobby already then like maybe

(00:33:50):
they

(00:33:51):
And the sense of like the shift will be different.

(00:33:54):
So I think it's like forming this social elements with them is really important.

(00:34:01):
And we also had covered topics like alcohol.

(00:34:04):
Is alcohol actually good for you or not?

(00:34:07):
Like a glass of red wine, is that good for you or not?

(00:34:09):
So these are like all topics coming from the community.

(00:34:14):
And then we invited speakers to talk about it.

(00:34:18):
and i remember one um which is i invited um susanna walker you know from like to

(00:34:24):
talk about the um neuroscience about touch because like when you become older you

(00:34:29):
probably less have sense of touch so we've got this like a workshop about theory of

(00:34:35):
it and then back to back we're also invited a dance lecturer like james like he

(00:34:40):
talked about um and also have a practical uh session

(00:34:44):
about um the movement so like the importance of touch and movement so they really

(00:34:50):
enjoyed it because you've got the neuroscience bit and also got like the practical

(00:34:54):
bit so yeah so this is still on and um yeah we really wanted to um forming this

(00:35:01):
network you know through like different youth rate hubs and also that you know with

(00:35:06):
the community like uh yeah so i think that's just like really good that you know um

(00:35:11):
having

(00:35:12):
communities there you know to work with and just back to your question like uh yeah

(00:35:19):
so um yeah so it's like um what's now like you know working with the communities is

(00:35:24):
great because um right now our lab is developing like behavioral studies like to

(00:35:29):
understanding the neurobiology of memory so i'm hoping to have this like

(00:35:33):
translational bit so from what i did with the animals you know to translate this to

(00:35:37):
human

(00:35:38):
so um i've got one project going on is that using minecraft like uh i don't know if

(00:35:43):
you both like minecraft so like yeah um yeah so um like with students and my team

(00:35:48):
like working with students as students and also kids previously so it's using

(00:35:53):
minecraft like to see how this prior knowledge and influence memory and also

(00:35:58):
information seeking so basically the participant needs to go into the um

(00:36:04):
minecraft world and then we have a world like that they basically need to do like

(00:36:07):
spatial navigations so um they have to break the blocks and then like finding uh is

(00:36:12):
it like a goal like in the minecraft and then we also got another project going on

(00:36:18):
is uh like a shopping watch i don't know if you like both like shopping so the idea

(00:36:23):
is that um the participants um need to understand this um the

(00:36:27):
shopping mall, and then they have to find these items.

(00:36:30):
Let's just say,

(00:36:31):
if I would like to buy a nice t-shirt,

(00:36:33):
like maybe a white t-shirt that Fatme has,

(00:36:35):
like,

(00:36:35):
you know,

(00:36:36):
what shop should I go?

(00:36:37):
So the idea is,

(00:36:39):
um,

(00:36:39):
this task is that like to see how,

(00:36:42):
again,

(00:36:42):
how does Prong Life,

(00:36:43):
you know,

(00:36:44):
helps them to learn things better and quicker.

(00:36:47):
And then could we, you know, apply this with like early onset dementia?

(00:36:52):
Cause this project is also, um,

(00:36:54):
collaborating with Walton Centre, a hospital based in Liverpool.

(00:36:59):
So the idea is to see, could we develop this behavioural paradigm?

(00:37:04):
So ultimately, could we use this paradigm to help people with any memory problems?

(00:37:11):
And,

(00:37:11):
um,

(00:37:12):
I think one more,

(00:37:12):
um,

(00:37:13):
projects that was like,

(00:37:14):
I'm really excited about this,

(00:37:16):
a recent project that I collaborate with like computer science,

(00:37:19):
like a department.

(00:37:20):
Cause I really like all this interdisciplinary like projects again,

(00:37:25):
I think,

(00:37:26):
you know,

(00:37:26):
like working with people in the arts,

(00:37:28):
like,

(00:37:28):
uh,

(00:37:29):
in a dance and also working with people in computer science.

(00:37:31):
So this project is also looking into how prior knowledge influence memory.

(00:37:36):
But we've got a more slightly real-life setting.

(00:37:39):
So we divide it into two groups.

(00:37:42):
Okay, so we have this setup using VR, so virtual reality.

(00:37:46):
And so one of the students, Robert, so he made like...

(00:37:51):
the actual computer science light hub at you.

(00:37:54):
So there are students from computer science, know this building very well.

(00:37:59):
Okay.

(00:38:00):
So they now need to go into this virtual reality world,

(00:38:03):
like mimicking,

(00:38:03):
you know,

(00:38:03):
what happened in the real world and they got to go and see,

(00:38:06):
find the items.

(00:38:08):
And the idea is that if you've got like power knowledge,

(00:38:12):
will that give you advantage to find,

(00:38:14):
you know,

(00:38:15):
this items better.

(00:38:17):
like versus then you know if i never um came across into the computer science

(00:38:21):
building you know maybe i have to disadvantage so this is more like a real life

(00:38:25):
settings and i'm moving towards that direction because i would like to apply you

(00:38:30):
know things that in a more real life setting just a pure you know lab-based setting

(00:38:36):
yeah and what currently i'm using with the tools later with the equipment is like

(00:38:40):
what about EEG and that's just the first step that link with the behavioral

(00:38:44):
And hopefully in the future, maybe I would use like FMI or like TMS too.

(00:38:49):
So yeah, so we're like working towards like step by step.

(00:38:53):
Yeah.

(00:38:54):
Yeah.

(00:38:55):
Very cool.

(00:38:57):
So very comprehensive.

(00:38:58):
Yeah.

(00:38:59):
Right.

(00:38:59):
Like honestly, so many, so many projects, Dorothy.

(00:39:02):
I think I know them all.

(00:39:03):
And then you spring this Minecraft one on me.

(00:39:06):
Yeah.

(00:39:07):
It sounds like a lot of things you're doing is helping memory, but also preventing dementia.

(00:39:12):
Mm-hmm.

(00:39:13):
ways that you're trying to like kind of understand that more in real life and like

(00:39:16):
maybe not so much real life in the lab setting can you say what do you think

(00:39:20):
healthy behaviors we can do day to day um to help maybe prevent dementia is any in

(00:39:26):
particular that come to mind yeah i think

(00:39:29):
I think it's mainly having physical activity and also sleep well.

(00:39:35):
I think this is really important too.

(00:39:38):
And also eat well and also forming your social connection.

(00:39:43):
I think that's the social part is really important.

(00:39:47):
It's across lifespan because I think we are all social animals.

(00:39:52):
So I do think there's four elements that's really important.

(00:39:58):
Social, eat well, sleep well, exercise.

(00:40:00):
Yes, yes, yes.

(00:40:03):
That's good.

(00:40:04):
So excuse for being late, I've slept well.

(00:40:08):
Excuse for leaving early, need to go to the gym before the rush, need to hang out with friends.

(00:40:15):
I like it.

(00:40:15):
Need to eat, olive oil and pizza, sounds great.

(00:40:19):
Also having like a positive mindset with things, like that's really important too.

(00:40:23):
Yeah, like yeah, physical and mental, yes.

(00:40:28):
That's incredible.

(00:40:30):
That's a very nice, succinct way to look at it.

(00:40:33):
The other question which interested me was you mentioned something about is wine

(00:40:39):
potentially good for you or bad for you?

(00:40:41):
I was like, why did you pick that example?

(00:40:43):
Is this good?

(00:40:44):
Is it good in any way?

(00:40:47):
I think this is more like a myth.

(00:40:51):
Yeah,

(00:40:51):
but I,

(00:40:52):
I,

(00:40:53):
I personally am not the expert,

(00:40:54):
but then we have like a workshop talking about the actual,

(00:40:58):
like a,

(00:40:59):
like impact of alcohol,

(00:41:01):
like,

(00:41:01):
and also,

(00:41:02):
and also there was another topic,

(00:41:04):
which I found personally found is really interesting,

(00:41:07):
which is called social prescribing.

(00:41:10):
And then there's probably more recently,

(00:41:12):
you know,

(00:41:12):
instead of like prescribing any like medicines,

(00:41:15):
like social prescribing,

(00:41:17):
you know,

(00:41:17):
together.

(00:41:18):
like going out like for a walk um in a more green area is also important so i think

(00:41:24):
there are lots of different topics that we can cover you know for health and

(00:41:28):
well-being yes and this is like i found it's like interesting and and through

(00:41:32):
different workshops that i feel like i learned more about like uh you know have

(00:41:37):
like a um like a better like health and healthy life yeah

(00:41:42):
I think after COVID-19 especially,

(00:41:45):
like after all the lockdowns,

(00:41:48):
it was so hard almost to physically try to get social again.

(00:41:52):
Like you had to almost force yourself a little bit to do it.

(00:41:54):
And it's important that when the research is saying you need to do it,

(00:41:58):
it gives even more reason to make that effort.

(00:42:02):
Exactly.

(00:42:02):
So when you mentioned that,

(00:42:05):
it makes me think of the first visit when I went to U3A,

(00:42:09):
so the University of Third Age,

(00:42:12):
the hub that I were there.

(00:42:14):
I remember,

(00:42:15):
first of all,

(00:42:16):
they welcomed me,

(00:42:18):
and then afterwards,

(00:42:19):
they showed me a list of activities they have.

(00:42:22):
And I was so surprised.

(00:42:23):
There are about maybe 80 to 100 of activities they've got, and this is, you know, from

(00:42:29):
hill walking you know to yoga and it was amazing that i'm really surprised like how

(00:42:36):
many activities they offer so this is something that i thought is and and also with

(00:42:41):
the activities is not just you and do it by yourself right it's like a social

(00:42:45):
connection bond so i do think that you know having this social elements with the

(00:42:50):
communities is really important yeah

(00:42:54):
That's awesome.

(00:42:54):
I guess for the last little bit,

(00:42:56):
I did want to talk about sort of your public engagement work because clearly you're

(00:43:00):
doing a lot of public patient involvement work,

(00:43:03):
which is interacting with communities,

(00:43:06):
getting their ideas on what research to do.

(00:43:08):
But then you also mentioned,

(00:43:10):
I remember when you said,

(00:43:12):
do memories change is a question,

(00:43:13):
which you get a lot when you do public engagements.

(00:43:16):
I wanted to spend a little bit of time on that.

(00:43:20):
So what kind of public engagement work do you do?

(00:43:24):
Apart from, of course, coming on this podcast.

(00:43:27):
Yeah.

(00:43:30):
So I worked with a lot of different organizations and I think that is important.

(00:43:36):
So we've got like workshops.

(00:43:39):
So when I mentioned like working with YouthGrey, we have this program is called

(00:43:44):
aging better like with an active mind so I think this is really good it's ongoing

(00:43:49):
for three years and it's like building relationship with like youth ray and also

(00:43:55):
not just like one hub but like since we started there's like there are different

(00:43:59):
youth ray hubs like informe and for breakdown they uh like software they really

(00:44:04):
interested too so we're hoping to um expand this network so I think this is like

(00:44:10):
good you know to have um running workshops together

(00:44:13):
So I think this is one.

(00:44:14):
And then we always have meetings, so consultation, meetings with them.

(00:44:18):
So getting their ideas.

(00:44:21):
And also when we write research proposal,

(00:44:24):
we also ask them for feedback because I think it's really important to

(00:44:29):
you know,

(00:44:30):
have their views,

(00:44:31):
you know,

(00:44:32):
on whether this project,

(00:44:33):
you know,

(00:44:33):
is actually benefits for them.

(00:44:35):
So I think this is like a win-win situation.

(00:44:38):
We let them know what is the latest research and they let us know what actually do they want?

(00:44:42):
Because I think ultimately what we want is, you know, to help like the communities, right?

(00:44:46):
I think so this is one types of like public engagement.

(00:44:50):
And then the other one that recently a project that I've been working with another colleague,

(00:44:57):
is a dance lecturer and that project is called like yesterday okay it's about the

(00:45:02):
memory and movement so what that project was about is that and we asked the

(00:45:07):
participants okay to let us know a really vivid like childhood memory okay so we

(00:45:12):
ran a few workshops you know like helping them you know to find what is some memory

(00:45:16):
that sticks with them like usually they talk about um childhood like a memory

(00:45:21):
And I remember one participant and she told us that when she was small,

(00:45:26):
she really liked to play on swing.

(00:45:28):
However,

(00:45:28):
at the park,

(00:45:29):
usually there's this big voice in front of her and she always have to wait for a

(00:45:34):
very long time.

(00:45:36):
so like uh that she had that feeling of i really want to go to have the swing but

(00:45:42):
you know there are a lot of people in front of me and i'm just like too small like

(00:45:45):
uh yeah she still had that feeling so and what we did was that we um built her a

(00:45:50):
swing like in the art center so that when she um talk about it she can you know

(00:45:55):
swing like uh during this so with that project what we would like to see is that

(00:46:01):
when participants like talk about their memory like relive their memory

(00:46:06):
not only verbally they talk about it, they also need to use movement.

(00:46:09):
So like, that's what like James came from, like talk about the dance movement.

(00:46:14):
They used, you need to use like movement to represent this out.

(00:46:17):
So I personally think that this is really interesting.

(00:46:20):
It's like a crossover of neuroscience with arts.

(00:46:22):
And I think that's just the,

(00:46:24):
for me,

(00:46:24):
one thing is like,

(00:46:25):
as a researcher,

(00:46:26):
this is the joy that,

(00:46:27):
oh,

(00:46:27):
you can like work with different people and then you have different outcomes.

(00:46:31):
So it's really, really exciting.

(00:46:33):
So we have our showcase back in December.

(00:46:37):
And one thing that I wasn't expected was that one of the participants was saying that,

(00:46:45):
after she came with this event okay she really feel transformed in a way that she

(00:46:52):
previously think that university is more like an ivory tower you say every town

(00:46:56):
yeah so there's like this far away like you know public will not get anywhere near

(00:47:02):
it but she feel really welcome so after this you know workshops and you know going

(00:47:07):
through like a few workshops and then she feel really welcome because

(00:47:10):
She thinks that like university actually wanted to, you know, work with the community.

(00:47:16):
And that is something I didn't expect that.

(00:47:19):
Like I wasn't like, uh, yeah.

(00:47:21):
And, and this makes me really happy, right.

(00:47:24):
Thinking, oh, maybe what, maybe my goal is, you know, to improve brain health.

(00:47:28):
Right.

(00:47:28):
And my goal is to like help people to understand my memory.

(00:47:32):
But this is actually a really good outcome that I never thought of.

(00:47:35):
So I think this is,

(00:47:37):
yeah,

(00:47:37):
this is really rewarding to me,

(00:47:39):
like that somebody thinks,

(00:47:40):
oh,

(00:47:40):
actually,

(00:47:41):
you know,

(00:47:42):
after this,

(00:47:42):
like she would like to interact with more researchers.

(00:47:45):
She's like open to this idea.

(00:47:47):
And she also joined more courses into creative writing.

(00:47:51):
Because previously she thought that,

(00:47:52):
oh,

(00:47:53):
like,

(00:47:54):
you know,

(00:47:55):
I know what's going on in my childhood,

(00:47:56):
but what can I do about it?

(00:47:58):
Like, yeah, so she said that this project would change her.

(00:48:02):
And I thought, wow, like, this is really unexpected.

(00:48:05):
Let me put it this way.

(00:48:06):
So I think there are like different public engagement activities.

(00:48:09):
And sometimes maybe that is...

(00:48:11):
like our goal maybe is to improve brain health but maybe there are also other

(00:48:16):
positive outcome we never thought of i think this is really really amazing yes like

(00:48:21):
this is um yeah and uh and also um with that movie so like we we filmed that movie

(00:48:27):
and then um it's also going to showcase in one of our bna festival event so um it's

(00:48:33):
gonna happen on the 26th of april so bethany is also involved and then that event

(00:48:38):
is called remember me it's basically asking

(00:48:41):
and participant to come and share one of the memories.

(00:48:44):
Yeah.

(00:48:45):
So there's lots of like public engagement events going on.

(00:48:48):
And I think they bring like different positive outcomes.

(00:48:52):
And sometimes it is not what we expected.

(00:48:54):
Yeah.

(00:48:56):
That's so nice.

(00:48:57):
Imagine trying to, it's basically reliving your memories with the project.

(00:49:02):
That sounds so exciting.

(00:49:04):
Yeah.

(00:49:05):
Yeah.

(00:49:05):
And people, and we've got like a brochure for everyone and on the brochure, it's like a booklet.

(00:49:11):
And then we basically have a picture of the participant and also tell their story.

(00:49:16):
Like, yeah.

(00:49:18):
And it's really touching because they, each of us like have different memories.

(00:49:22):
And I think for this project, they feel really valued.

(00:49:26):
Like they feel like they are the,

(00:49:29):
like the movie stars,

(00:49:30):
like they feel valued and they feel important.

(00:49:33):
Like I think it's people putting priorities on, on them.

(00:49:37):
Yes.

(00:49:37):
I think this is something I,

(00:49:40):
I wasn't expected in the beginning,

(00:49:42):
but now I,

(00:49:43):
when I see it well,

(00:49:43):
and then,

(00:49:44):
especially when they share it to us,

(00:49:45):
I think this is,

(00:49:46):
um,

(00:49:47):
yeah,

(00:49:47):
to,

(00:49:47):
to us this really meaningful,

(00:49:49):
but yeah.

(00:49:51):
changing your perceptions of people you know were originally kind of like when you

(00:49:54):
say that ivory tower it's it's it's almost upsetting to hear isn't it because we

(00:49:58):
don't want to be like that but there's there is yeah you know in the past

(00:50:02):
researchers universities maybe haven't been as friendly as they should have been so

(00:50:05):
that's um very very pleasing to hear dorothy yeah yeah

(00:50:11):
I wish it was an ivory tower.

(00:50:13):
It's an asbestos tower most of the time.

(00:50:18):
Yeah,

(00:50:19):
I think there was a word that I wasn't expecting that when she was sharing in front

(00:50:23):
of the audience.

(00:50:24):
Yeah,

(00:50:28):
I know I keep talking on about how sometimes research and academia feels very

(00:50:33):
pretentious and it needs to change.

(00:50:35):
And yeah, things like this go a long way in doing that.

(00:50:41):
But no, thank you so much.

(00:50:42):
That was awesome.

(00:50:43):
Any final thoughts?

(00:50:46):
Anything which we didn't cover?

(00:50:48):
Dorothy, would you like to talk about?

(00:50:50):
Yeah, so I think maybe Bethany already mentioned previously that about the BNA coming.

(00:50:56):
So I think we are all really excited about this.

(00:50:59):
And I would like to say,

(00:51:01):
yeah,

(00:51:01):
with the BNA,

(00:51:03):
I think it's really good,

(00:51:04):
like in addition to the scientific programs,

(00:51:07):
we've got a lot of speakers.

(00:51:08):
And I think it's also with the public engagement events, there's lots going on too.

(00:51:13):
So I think this is...

(00:51:14):
like really inclusive we would like to include like the public like coming so i

(00:51:18):
think this is something i would like to highlight and it's an organization it's a

(00:51:22):
festival you know showcasing what we have been doing and it's also like to leave

(00:51:27):
like more like a legacy you know to join forces basically to show like uh

(00:51:32):
like about neuroscience, about brain health in general.

(00:51:34):
So yeah,

(00:51:35):
I would like to say that it's really,

(00:51:38):
if you have a chance,

(00:51:39):
you know,

(00:51:39):
do join us and then come and like,

(00:51:41):
you know,

(00:51:42):
celebrate this like festival with us.

(00:51:44):
Yeah.

(00:51:46):
Now, awesome.

(00:51:48):
Oh, thank you so much.

(00:51:50):
Dorothy, Beth, any final words from you as well?

(00:51:52):
Nope.

(00:51:53):
Thank you very much, Dorothy.

(00:51:54):
I'm excited for the events this month.

(00:51:57):
And there is,

(00:51:58):
as you said,

(00:51:58):
there was something for everyone from the neuroscientists to the people who,

(00:52:02):
scared a little bit by science so please do join and thanks for having me it's

(00:52:06):
really lovely to see you all yeah awesome thanks so much Dorothy you're welcome

(00:52:11):
thank you so much all right and also especially thank you everybody for listening

(00:52:15):
if you can please do show up to the New York Science Festival if you can't we will

(00:52:19):
try to put as much content as possible online for you guys to join in and feel like

(00:52:23):
you're a part so yeah until then and until the next episode take care