#64. Funding the Future: Women’s Sport in New Zealand - Erin Roxburgh

What does it take to elevate women's sport? Sahir and Lily Joiner of Nuku Ora - an active Wellington dive into the unique landscape of women's sports in New Zealand with special guest Erin Roxburgh, Deputy Chair of Women in Sport NZ. Erin, is a current squad member of the New Zealand Women's Indoor and Beach Handball teams and is currently a lecturer at Victoria University of Wellington and future director at Sport NZ, shares her personal journey and expert insights into the funding and governance structures that shape the sporting world down under. We discover the surprising role of gaming funds and how it compares to more commercial models, using basketball and rugby as case studies. We also explore the relatively recent professionalization of sports in Aotearoa and what the future holds. Whether you're a sports enthusiast or simply curious about the forces behind the game, this episode offers a thought-provoking look at the challenges and opportunities in the future of women's sport.

Erin Roxburgh Profile: https://people.wgtn.ac.nz/erin.r.roxburgh

Lily Joiner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lily-joiner-341860194?trk=contact-info

Chapters

• 0:00 Erin's Sporting Journey
• 8:16 Sport's Funding and Governance in New Zealand
• 19:15 Different models: Equality, Equity and National Attitude to Sport
• 33:28 Growing Women's Sports
• 47:32 Community vs Top-level funding Discrepancies
• 51:30 Role Models in Sports
• 56:41 Barriers to Women's Participation in Sports
• 1:08:30 Final Thoughts

Transcript

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Welcome back everybody to the Smooth Brain Society.

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Today we're taking a little shift away from the most recent episodes which have all

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been around neuroscience and we're going to be talking about sport which is really

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exciting because I think this saying has been hashed out multiple times by

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different people but it goes along the lines of sport is the most important of the

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least important things in the world and

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And so, and I love it as well.

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So, and I'm sure most people do to some extent or the other.

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So we're going to talk about it.

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And we're going to talk in particular about women in sport.

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And for that, we have Erin Roxburgh on.

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Is it, sorry, wait, is it Roxburgh or Roxburgh?

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Oh, Roxburgh.

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Yeah, you know that.

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Yeah, Roxburgh.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Because it's like, it's spelled like Edinburgh, so I pronounced it that way, but I wasn't sure.

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Okay, so Erin Roxburgh on, who is the Deputy Chair of Women in Sport New Zealand.

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She is a lecturer in sports management at Victoria University,

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also a PhD student at Victoria University,

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the future director of Sport New Zealand,

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a board member of Netball Wellington Centre,

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and...

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is also a New Zealand women's international beach handball and regular handball squad member.

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So we've got not only an academic, but a professional sportswoman coming to speak to us.

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So welcome to the Smooth Mane Society, Erin.

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Awesome.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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and uh if everybody if anyone's new to the podcast the way it works is we have a

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co-host on as well who usually has no idea about the topic and is thrown in the

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deep end to be fair i'm also have no idea about erin's work so i'm in the deep end

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as well but thank you lily for joining us if you could introduce yourself to

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everybody um

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I actually know Erin quite well,

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so I'll have to think of things that I already know answers to,

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or maybe things I don't know answers to.

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But cool to be on the podcast, I work in community sports.

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I work for a local organisation here in Wellington called Nuku Ora,

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and we advocate for physical activity across the region and all things movement for wellbeing.

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And I also play football, but not at a professional level, but very much social.

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Yeah.

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Well,

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in honor of Aaron coming on here,

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I'm wearing my handball top from the time I used to play for Victoria University.

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It fits a little bit tighter now, but it is what it is.

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So Aaron, let's start where we start with most of our guests.

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Could you give us a little bit of a background into yourself?

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So your journey into how you've decided to work in sports management and sort of

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your sporting background in general?

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Yeah, sure.

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So I was really lucky that my dad and mum were both really, really into sport growing up.

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And I think that really has facilitated a lot of what I do now,

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like some really early memories I have of sport are not actually about me playing sport,

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it's watching my dad playing sport and not even watching my dad.

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For anyone who's familiar with Alexmoor Park in Johnsonville,

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my earliest memories of sport are sliding down the hills there on cardboard boxes

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while my dad

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I was playing cricket um but I guess for me something that's probably always been

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really ingrained into me from my dad is he always made sure that it was always

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about having fun and and creating a community for other people to be a part of um

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I'm really lucky in that a role model that I've had is someone who's always played

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in in my dad has played in first 11s but was always on the um you know he was

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always on the committee he was helping coach and um actually my auntie Julie who's

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sadly no longer with us had um

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quite severe epilepsy but she was always at the game she learned how to score

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cricket and you know there's memories of her coming to the game my dad's games and

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she one time had grazes on both of her knees because she'd had a seizure on the way

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but still made it to the game and the cricket club scoreboard at Johnsonville was

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actually named after her so yeah I have a lot of memories of sport being something

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that was all about fun and helping other people and so

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I, throughout high school, played lots of sports.

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I was never in any of,

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like,

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the top teams,

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but I played netball and football,

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and I had horses,

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so I did horse riding as well.

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And, yeah, at school I used to coach and all that kind of stuff as well.

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And then when I came to university,

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I started playing at Team Vip Netball Club,

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which is,

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yeah,

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is a huge club.

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It had about 26 teams, and that's where I started playing Prem Netball.

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um and then coaching other women and I guess I started to say that it was a spot

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that like people played because they liked playing but also they were new to

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Wellington that were you know they were new to Wellington they didn't know people

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and um something you probably get from the podcast is I'm like quite severely

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extroverted and so a social um committee person came up available and I was like

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hey I love planning a party I love bringing people together

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So I did that,

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and that was probably my first experience with,

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I guess,

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which is probably something I'm going to tie into with governance,

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you know,

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thinking about how we can change communities for the better through sport.

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And yeah, from there, it all just kind of took off.

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And then I started playing handball,

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joined the Wellington Handball Committee,

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and then from there,

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New Zealand Handball Federation.

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I did some advocacy work.

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around when I used to play beach handball we used to have to wear bikinis if you

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can believe that um did some advocacy work around that and it made me think about

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actually you know what like positional positional titles seem to get you into

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spaces and I was able to talk

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and do some advocacy work around that.

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And I realized I kind of did have a voice.

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And yeah,

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so I'm still playing sport to this day,

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still playing cream netball,

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indoor handball,

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beach handball.

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And what's really awesome that I see now is just we had this crop of young women

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coming through who will never have to wear bikinis.

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and that I get to mentor.

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So,

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yeah,

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I mean,

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like a lot of athletes,

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so I play self-entered prem netball now,

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so we don't train twice a week.

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But,

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yeah,

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I guess for any other university students watching this or people still trying to

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play sport because it's all fairly pseudo-professional here and we all are self-funding,

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you know,

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it's a hard graph training five or six times a week,

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playing a netball game on Saturday,

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a handball game on Sunday,

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and then having to show up at work batted and bruised on a Monday.

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But, yeah,

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Yeah,

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I guess one of my favorite quotes that articulates what I think sport is all about

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and I think we're going to talk about is I think sport is the lens,

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you know,

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through which we can see,

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understand and solve social issues.

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So, yeah, I'm very passionate about that.

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The sport management lecturing.

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So my PhD is actually looking in Maori governance.

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But I got into lecturing sport management because I started teaching at Vic Uni,

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came on in my full-time lecturer position about three years ago.

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And our head of school said, hey, Erin,

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We need another 300 level management course.

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You're into sport, aren't you?

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Like, do you want to resurrect our sport management paper?

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And as a first year academic, I was like, why not?

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Opportunity of a lifetime.

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And I was like, where do I even start?

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But I have a fantastic mentor in Dr.

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Sarah Lieberman,

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who is a professor of sports leadership at Massey and just the ultimate goat of

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women's sport.

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She is a Tsitsubishi ally and we sat in a taxi after a board meeting one day and

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she helped me plan out what my course could look like.

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So big credit, her mana flows through the way that I teach sport management, for sure.

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So I guess my journey is probably not unlike any other people's other than that

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I had a very privileged upbringing and parents who could always drive me to and

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from games,

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buy me new sports shoes,

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pay for my fees.

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And I've been lucky enough to come across other people ahead of me who,

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yeah,

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were happy to share the positional power they had,

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which is something we don't always see in sport either.

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Oh, that's an awesome journey.

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And I've

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can relate to a lot of it uh this the pseudo the pseudo professional thing is very

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true and it was one thing would surprise me when I first came back to New Zealand

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uh when I came back to New Zealand to do my uh university um because in India

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you're sort of training five six times

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a week if you're playing cricket or hockey or whatever and in most cases if you

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make an under 16 squad team you're paid so when you're an under 15 when you're

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under 15 so you're 14 year old 15 year old you're getting paid some sort of money

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to play to train um i i don't it's not a lot but like it's and then you come to new

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zealand and you realize these professional athletes are have day jobs and they've

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like and you've got

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I think was it Jeet Raval was a cricketer who had like on his bet behind his

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cricket bat sticker.

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He had the company which he worked for advertised on it.

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because that was his job over the winter months and i learned that a woman's sport

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even worse but even men's sport like ross taylor who for i know american audiences

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i'm already losing them or people who are not into cricket but um but he he is this

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cricketer who i think he debuted or he started playing cricket in like 2001 2002

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and he's

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regarded as the first full-time professional cricketer in New Zealand because ever

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since the start of his career he earned money to the end well and you realize that

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that's such a privileged position and that's men's sports then women's sports again

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like three four steps further behind that so yeah that part just sort of relate

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yeah I really related to that being like how difference the difference between the

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two between different countries how sports is perceived

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But do you think that also changes your approach to how sports is?

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Like,

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do you think that sports would have been different if supposed people were getting

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paid at 15,

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16,

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17,

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or you were able to pay them at that age?

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Oh, yeah, that's actually a question I never thought about.

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I mean, I think it does.

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And I,

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yeah,

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I don't know what experience you have at Lily in community sport,

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but yeah,

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I think it would have,

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I think it does change things.

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I think probably what that goes to talk to, if I can segue it, is...

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actually thinking about the way that sport is funded and governed here in Aotearoa

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New Zealand is quite unique and yeah Lily you just jump in from a community

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perspective because I'm just talking about this from an academic perspective not

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necessarily having experienced it but yeah the way that our sports sector is funded

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here is very interesting and I think even from a sporting franchise so obviously in

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America the way that sports franchises operate is very autonomous and

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We see that New Zealand basketball mirrors a very same,

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more like commercialised US model,

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but actually for most of our other sports franchises here in New Zealand,

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we kind of have this structure where you have sports franchises and then they are

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directly controlled or report to their national sporting organisation.

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So, for example, because the money flows from, obviously, taxpayers,

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and Class 4 Lotteries Commission, Class 4, what's called Class 4 Gaming Funding.

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So any place that has slot machines,

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I don't know what the appropriate term for them is,

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pokey machines,

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they have pokeys.

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Yeah, they then have a certain percentage.

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If they have license to operate,

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they then have a certain percentage of that that needs to be turned into grant money.

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And a lot of that then flows into the way community sport is funded here in Aotearoa.

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And ultimately, because of the pseudo-professionalism,

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Even franchises who we see on TV are sometimes,

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their staff behind the scenes are funded by that class for gaming funding because,

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again,

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and I'm not trying to speak ill of Sport New Zealand here,

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it is the system that we kind of operate in now where we're quite reliant on

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funding and we don't really have a high commercialisation model I think that comes

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from the fact that through basically up until the late 90s even the All Blacks

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weren't professional yeah that sounds about right

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Yeah,

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and so you kind of,

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sorry,

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I could get a bit nerdy on this,

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but there was a few different milestones.

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So we had,

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I'm sure everyone who lives overseas or people who really,

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and this is probably the first interceptions,

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but have you guys heard of the neoliberalist movement?

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basically that led to the government here making changes, which basically commodified sport.

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But because sport prior to that was not seen as a public good,

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I think we're still quite reliant on community funding and it's hard to get

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commercial funding as well.

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So, yeah.

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Yeah, totally.

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You kind of see how reliant on even just that –

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the kind of grassroots up rather than the top-down approach,

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how reliant on that we are in Aotearoa.

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I mean,

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New Zealand rugby is probably the one that's the most commercial and then maybe New

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Zealand cricket following in terms of having,

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you know,

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the black caps,

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the all blacks,

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and having a commercial arm that helps to prop up community sport and the lower leagues.

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But then you've got pretty much every other sport,

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including New Zealand football,

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where participants who are playing at junior youth first kicks level are helping to

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fund the national body,

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which then helps to fund the professional team.

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Yeah.

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It's a pretty crazy time.

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And there's also things like the sinking lid policy,

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which I don't know if it's a nationwide thing.

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Do you know if it is, Erin?

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I think different councils have different policies around it.

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But especially in Wellington,

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we've got the sinking lid policy,

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which basically means no new pokey machines allowed to be installed.

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And so that's essentially putting a stop to the growth of...

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The growth of that class for gaming funding.

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And so it's a really tricky situation to be in where you're kind of like you see

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the benefit that all of this money is having on the community and funding roles

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like mine.

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But then at the same time, it's like the harm that gambling does.

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This is such a tangent.

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I don't know why we've gone on this tangent, but it's so complicated.

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It's so funny.

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I never knew that gambling funded, well, partially funded sports in New Zealand.

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Well, particularly gambling.

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I want to say the statistic is,

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and correct me if I'm wrong,

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I think about,

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it's about 70% of the community or like the sports sector here in Aotearoa is

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funded in some way,

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whether first or second hand through the class for gaming funding.

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I think it's quite 70% or certainly like a substantial amount.

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Yeah.

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And some of that is lotteries.

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So lotto, which,

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is kind of seen as our more mainstream and good gambling because a lot of more

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wealthier people do it,

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potentially.

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So there's layers to it.

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And there's discussions between DIA,

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who are the sort of monitors of all that sort of gambling activity in New Zealand,

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and Sport NZ,

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the national body,

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around what's the future of that look like and what are the ethical considerations.

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And so it's all very interesting to be involved in that discussion.

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Does that also include sports betting or just gambling and,

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sorry,

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just,

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uh,

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poke,

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pokies and Lotto,

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or does it include like any sort of sports gambling?

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Yeah, it does include, um, yeah, it does include sports betting.

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Like I know that when I was on the New Zealand Handball Federation board,

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one of the things that we were looking at,

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um,

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is handball becoming a sport that people could bet on.

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And then what that meant is that directly money would then flow,

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uh,

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back into the New Zealand Handball Federation.

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And, you know, it is this really thing to build off what Lily was saying.

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It's this really ironic thing where people are participating in gambling,

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which we ultimately don't necessarily want.

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But then for the New Zealand Handball Federation,

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we've been able to start a fund,

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which is a community grant fund that anyone in New Zealand Handball can then apply

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to that fund to do any ideas or social initiatives they've had with grassroots handball.

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So we've seen it be able to fund different primary schools,

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having access to handballs,

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paying people to go in,

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and teach handball,

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getting them gear,

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you know,

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when ultimately that money being flowed firstly around,

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obviously for a sport like handball was really key for us to get that for the Olympics.

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So, yeah, it's a really interesting funding model and I think it does suck away a little bit

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of an ability you know we don't sport here in Aotearoa is not um yeah I wouldn't

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say is as commercial and yeah we think about it was even only until I think it was

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until the Rugby World Cup in 1998 uh when

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The government at the time, you know, decided to have pay-to-view TV.

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The Rugby World Cup was the first, one of the first sports to be a pay-to-view sport.

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Then money was flowing,

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sorry,

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I shouldn't say men's rugby,

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you know,

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was flowing into the sport.

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But that was only in the late 90s.

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So we're thinking not,

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you know,

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maybe we've had 30 years of professionalism of sport here,

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where there's other countries I think has been a lot longer.

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And yeah, we do.

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Again, I think we are fairly oversaturated for sport.

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And I think in New Zealand as well,

(00:18:14):
I think we do have a real,

(00:18:15):
which I love,

(00:18:16):
a real mentality on sports.

(00:18:19):
um not as much elitism in sport like I think we have this thing like everyone can

(00:18:23):
participate in sport and you know I think most community sport or sports are funded

(00:18:28):
and participated in by people who want to show up on a Saturday and it's about

(00:18:32):
getting everyone moving and that kind of stuff so yeah we have quite an well I

(00:18:35):
would say this because this is my research well the thing I love but I think it is

(00:18:39):
a really interesting and um unassumingly complex

(00:18:45):
And I guess probably I should preface that all of almost my three degrees are in commerce.

(00:18:52):
So I definitely come at it from quite an organizational perspective,

(00:18:56):
probably the lens through which I see things.

(00:18:58):
But yeah,

(00:18:59):
I think we have a really interesting sporting environment once you finally take the

(00:19:03):
lid off.

(00:19:04):
And I always start one of my first classes is talking to the students about how the

(00:19:08):
sports sector is funded and governed.

(00:19:09):
Because I think once you know that, you start to see everything in a really different way.

(00:19:15):
Yeah,

(00:19:15):
well,

(00:19:16):
my mind is blown completely,

(00:19:18):
but I didn't know that this is how sort of the sporting structure worked.

(00:19:22):
And I played sports in New Zealand for 10 years and multiple sports as well.

(00:19:25):
But I didn't know that that's how sort of everything worked.

(00:19:31):
But to pick on your commerce side a little bit further,

(00:19:35):
and you were talking about sort of the ethical dilemma,

(00:19:40):
a little bit of sort of the

(00:19:43):
sort of gambling being a big part of funding how how would you see New Zealand

(00:19:47):
moving past it or sort of improving that model because of the way the model

(00:19:53):
currently is oh I have actually thought about this a few times I think I've even

(00:19:59):
had a chat with Lily about this

(00:20:03):
Look, I think it's really hard to say.

(00:20:06):
I think that,

(00:20:08):
and again,

(00:20:09):
jump in if you like,

(00:20:10):
Lily,

(00:20:10):
as well,

(00:20:10):
but I really see the model that New Zealand basketball is operating as something

(00:20:14):
that's quite unique and innovative.

(00:20:16):
And I'm sorry,

(00:20:18):
I don't know much about the men's league funding,

(00:20:21):
but so New Zealand basketball recently started the,

(00:20:24):
well,

(00:20:25):
it's been in operation now for three years.

(00:20:27):
what's called the Toehi League.

(00:20:29):
So it was the Women's Basketball League.

(00:20:31):
And I feel like they ran it in more of an autonomous way where each franchise had

(00:20:37):
far more autonomy from the national body.

(00:20:39):
So for example,

(00:20:40):
in rugby,

(00:20:41):
even the Hurricanes,

(00:20:42):
a spot on their own top,

(00:20:44):
they have to pay a lease for that particular space on their top to New Zealand rugby.

(00:20:49):
So there's always this money, like Lily was saying, flowing from the bottom up.

(00:20:53):
But with the Toehi League,

(00:20:56):
Each franchise was put out to market and a consortium of buyers often came together

(00:21:02):
to buy the franchise.

(00:21:04):
And so I think there were a few things from the get-go where these franchises had

(00:21:07):
to be able to be financially sustainable on their own.

(00:21:10):
They had to guarantee pay parity with the men.

(00:21:12):
But what that could enable them to do is look at funding their franchises in their own way.

(00:21:19):
So it was kind of,

(00:21:20):
I think,

(00:21:20):
probably one of the first commercial sports models where we've seen that reliance

(00:21:25):
come away from that funding.

(00:21:26):
But obviously,

(00:21:27):
I'm only speaking from,

(00:21:28):
I mean,

(00:21:29):
ideally,

(00:21:29):
you would really like to think that the government could somewhere find

(00:21:33):
money to put more of our taxes towards sport.

(00:21:36):
But I think sometimes that can be really tricky because like anything,

(00:21:41):
we're all spectators of sport.

(00:21:42):
So often the way that you can make more money out of sport is like,

(00:21:47):
I hate using this word,

(00:21:48):
but the glittery thing is professional sport,

(00:21:51):
right?

(00:21:52):
It's often people really take for granted

(00:21:55):
the parents who take their seven-year-old kids down to the muddy park on a Saturday morning,

(00:21:59):
even though that is the bulk of people that make up sports.

(00:22:02):
So,

(00:22:03):
you know,

(00:22:03):
the thing around if we were to redistribute or think about the tax system,

(00:22:07):
I think,

(00:22:07):
unfortunately,

(00:22:08):
it does start pouring into that elite-level sport because that's ultimately where

(00:22:12):
we can make more money out of it.

(00:22:14):
You get viewers.

(00:22:15):
So, yeah, I think it would really require a huge shake-up, and I think possibly –

(00:22:21):
And there's a really good, again, nerd vibe.

(00:22:25):
There's a fantastic chapter that someone wrote in a sports academic handbook,

(00:22:31):
which is a New Zealand-based one,

(00:22:32):
where,

(00:22:33):
you know,

(00:22:33):
I think ultimately we'd really have to shift our perception of sport here in

(00:22:37):
Aotearoa to justify that social value that sport does bring to everyday New Zealanders,

(00:22:43):
because I even know so...

(00:22:46):
in women in sport Aotearoa, we find it really difficult.

(00:22:49):
I actually think it's been a long time since we've received any type of commercial

(00:22:53):
funding that's not from the government because people don't see advocating for

(00:22:56):
women in sport as this glittery thing.

(00:23:00):
But what is a glittery thing is sponsoring a men's rugby team.

(00:23:04):
So I think there's a couple of ways.

(00:23:06):
I think we'd have to have a bit of a shake-up and think about where the money flows

(00:23:10):
and redistribute that.

(00:23:11):
But equally at the same time, I think that government and government policies

(00:23:16):
only mirror um the social license that they have in society and i think still in

(00:23:21):
new zealand the social license that we have here is that we really value men's

(00:23:24):
rugby do you know what i mean like just to put it bluntly we value even mean like

(00:23:30):
and i say men's rugby because i even find like

(00:23:33):
You know,

(00:23:34):
if I think about the role that the Phoenix,

(00:23:35):
the men's Phoenix team,

(00:23:36):
have played in Wellington,

(00:23:37):
they completely rejuvenated football here,

(00:23:40):
right,

(00:23:40):
since they first came.

(00:23:41):
And the Saints,

(00:23:43):
every game you go to for the men's basketball game,

(00:23:45):
it is pumping,

(00:23:46):
it's kid-friendly,

(00:23:47):
they're high-filling teams,

(00:23:50):
but ultimately...

(00:23:51):
at the end of the day people don't get together to watch the Phoenix or the All

(00:23:56):
Whites they get together to watch the All Blacks we have this real iconism

(00:24:00):
associated with them and I do feel like a lot of social license is given and that's

(00:24:04):
fair enough and that's no disrespect to the men who play in that team because they

(00:24:08):
do a great job at it and representing us so well but I yeah

(00:24:12):
And I guess, you know, sorry, I always take things from like a systems approach as well.

(00:24:16):
But thinking about why that exists is not really a mystery because we think that,

(00:24:21):
you know,

(00:24:22):
men's rugby has existed and been given a lot of airtime,

(00:24:26):
you know,

(00:24:26):
since the early 1900s.

(00:24:27):
So we're trying to unpack a century of systemic beliefs and sports stuff around that.

(00:24:35):
So, yeah.

(00:24:38):
So embedded in our culture as well,

(00:24:40):
hey,

(00:24:40):
the whole kind of full poppy syndrome and toxic masculinity and all those sort of

(00:24:46):
negative things that kind of have become a bit ingrained in sport culture and maybe

(00:24:51):
is what puts a lot of people off sport in Aotearoa as well.

(00:24:56):
And so sports like football,

(00:24:58):
basketball,

(00:25:00):
a number of other sports are growing a lot more in terms of

(00:25:06):
participation at a grassroots level.

(00:25:08):
And people are often surprised when I say rugby is declining at a grassroots level.

(00:25:15):
And it's women's rugby and young women's rugby that is increasing significantly

(00:25:21):
more than the men's.

(00:25:23):
Yeah, and I totally agree.

(00:25:25):
And I think the government funding is a key piece

(00:25:29):
and even council funding.

(00:25:31):
And it's really interesting to look at how over in Australia it's so much easier to

(00:25:40):
get projects off the ground because they have that kind of unanimous agreement that

(00:25:45):
sport is inherently part of being Australian and part of their culture and that

(00:25:50):
it's a good thing for all people.

(00:25:55):
And so there's less barriers and there's federal and state funding towards

(00:26:03):
you know, facilities and community initiatives on sport, which we just don't have here.

(00:26:10):
And so this has to be targeted approaches from the likes of Sport NZ to put funding

(00:26:15):
into young women's initiatives or put funding into focusing on people with

(00:26:22):
disabilities and those who aren't often considered.

(00:26:26):
So, yeah, it's interesting.

(00:26:32):
I'm very surprised by you saying that in Australia,

(00:26:35):
it's ingrained as sort of like sport is ingrained in them.

(00:26:40):
But New Zealand also tends to,

(00:26:42):
at least every time the Olympics comes around,

(00:26:44):
or when you think about a population of 5 million,

(00:26:46):
the number of sports that New Zealanders generally perform well at is really high

(00:26:52):
proportion to the rest of the world,

(00:26:53):
right?

(00:26:53):
Like the All Blacks,

(00:26:56):
of course,

(00:26:57):
the Black Caps tend to do really well in cricket more often than not.

(00:27:02):
The hockey teams, they're called the black sticks, aren't they?

(00:27:07):
Yeah.

(00:27:09):
I mean, they don't win trophies, but they compete at pretty high levels.

(00:27:13):
They're always up in the Olympic quarterfinals and things like that.

(00:27:17):
And then,

(00:27:18):
of course,

(00:27:18):
all the individual awards,

(00:27:20):
people win in rowing,

(00:27:21):
triathletes,

(00:27:22):
blah,

(00:27:22):
blah,

(00:27:22):
blah.

(00:27:22):
I would have thought that there would have been a bit more of a push from the New

(00:27:26):
Zealand government behind the scenes than what you guys are saying.

(00:27:31):
I think – and correct me if I'm wrong here,

(00:27:33):
Lily – I think that when it comes to – so we basically have a way of funding sport

(00:27:38):
here in Aotearoa where athletes become carded athletes.

(00:27:43):
So there's a lot of – there has been a lot of articles and research done around –

(00:27:49):
that often sports don't get funded here until you win a gold medal and then all of

(00:27:55):
a sudden canoe slalom has all this money flowing into it the money is then taken

(00:28:02):
away from other sports and I think what it does is we do well internationally in

(00:28:07):
that space but I think

(00:28:09):
a lot of our athletes fall through this karting system after they don't perform well.

(00:28:14):
And so there's quite a few case studies here where,

(00:28:17):
you know,

(00:28:18):
obviously there's this real pressure to win and because winning,

(00:28:22):
guarantees the sustainability uh of your sport and it yeah so i think we do we do

(00:28:28):
definitely punch uh above our weight for sure here i think in terms of like our

(00:28:32):
population and everything but i think yeah the space that we don't necessarily do

(00:28:36):
that um is at a community level and actually sometimes which there is a bit of

(00:28:42):
research being done about this uh looking after the athletes as a whole like even

(00:28:47):
in australia they have um

(00:28:49):
For example, something that comes to mind is called the Minerva Network.

(00:28:52):
So when athletes finish playing sport or they're coming to the end of their sports career,

(00:28:56):
community funding is then utilised to fund them having a mentor outside of the

(00:29:02):
sports space.

(00:29:03):
So they kind of see sport as this whole journey all the way through,

(00:29:07):
whereas I think previously New Zealand has been quite good at just letting people

(00:29:11):
fall off the edge,

(00:29:12):
really.

(00:29:12):
Yeah, I totally agree.

(00:29:19):
is that whole desire to perform on the international stage and how we've been kind

(00:29:25):
of renowned for Olympic medals has almost driven some

(00:29:33):
I want to say bad behaviour.

(00:29:34):
It's maybe controversial,

(00:29:36):
but I think it's bad behaviour from a grassroots level where regional sports

(00:29:40):
organisations are focused,

(00:29:42):
and national bodies as well,

(00:29:44):
and clubs,

(00:29:45):
to be honest,

(00:29:45):
even to that lesser extent,

(00:29:48):
are focusing on the high-performance space and are focusing on the top team or how

(00:29:55):
can we get these elite pathways forming and just focus on the cream of the crop,

(00:30:00):
which really...

(00:30:02):
takes the fun out of sport for a very large percentage of participants and

(00:30:07):
therefore and also neglects the the well-being of those higher performing athletes

(00:30:12):
all the time so yeah

(00:30:15):
Because I also think as well what's something that's really important and I think

(00:30:18):
is not often a message that's talked about is that,

(00:30:21):
you know,

(00:30:21):
so maybe we have our 0.6%,

(00:30:23):
right,

(00:30:24):
are the people that we see on TV and the people who are doing well in the sport.

(00:30:29):
But actually there are so many lifelong benefits.

(00:30:33):
from everyday people participating in sport and active recreation you know if we

(00:30:38):
think about the benefit to society as a whole of people participating in sport and

(00:30:44):
active recreation at any level it's astronomical the kind of multidisciplinary

(00:30:51):
things that sport can do to change society.

(00:30:54):
Like,

(00:30:55):
I mean,

(00:30:55):
I know Lily and I are both in a space and I've worked on,

(00:30:59):
or kind of helped co-found a young woman leadership program called Whanake o Te Kōpara,

(00:31:03):
where we,

(00:31:04):
you know,

(00:31:05):
all the wahine in that program are involved in sport.

(00:31:07):
But actually,

(00:31:08):
you see the change in the dreams they have in their community and the things that

(00:31:11):
they do around creating a women's only space or women learning how to lift weights,

(00:31:17):
which we know is something that has a huge stigma around it.

(00:31:20):
But actually,

(00:31:21):
women need to be lifting weights into the early 60s to reduce osteoporosis or

(00:31:27):
people doing research into sports.

(00:31:29):
So most of the sports nutrition and exercise advice comes from research that's done on men.

(00:31:36):
So we kind of,

(00:31:37):
yeah,

(00:31:37):
it's funny,

(00:31:38):
you see this product on TV,

(00:31:39):
but there are all of these lifelong benefits of just everyone participating in sport.

(00:31:42):
And I guess it's always a message that I want to try and say is,

(00:31:45):
you know,

(00:31:46):
a lot of my friends will show up to Netball once a week on a social twilight league

(00:31:50):
on a Thursday.

(00:31:51):
You know, it's like you just like a silver fern.

(00:31:54):
are gaining so many benefits from doing that you know you are not only physical but

(00:31:59):
you know you're getting to go and meet new people you're having to work with people

(00:32:02):
you don't normally work with you've had to time manage to get there you know

(00:32:05):
there's all these things that um I think would like you know always passionately

(00:32:11):
advocate for and so does Lily around everyone being able to participate in sport

(00:32:15):
and active record at any level and I think in Australia they are um

(00:32:19):
yeah they're fantastic you know there's not as many funding barriers for our local

(00:32:23):
um grassroots organizations and there really is a much more of a culture of people

(00:32:28):
participating in sport I think and and I think sport over in Australia as well

(00:32:33):
something they do they do a lot of things not well I should preface that um like

(00:32:38):
not recognizing it's not that it's a great place overall um

(00:32:42):
Yeah,

(00:32:43):
but from a sports perspective,

(00:32:46):
you know,

(00:32:47):
like they were the – so the Suncorp Super Netball,

(00:32:50):
again,

(00:32:50):
this is an intersection I always like to talk about.

(00:32:53):
The Suncorp Super Netball was the first elite female league in the world to have a

(00:32:58):
maternity leave policy.

(00:32:59):
So they were the first –

(00:33:01):
And again,

(00:33:01):
I just want to preface,

(00:33:02):
it's bare minimum for women to have access to a maternity leave policy.

(00:33:07):
But it was, they were the first league in the world to pioneer that.

(00:33:11):
And yeah,

(00:33:13):
they have a really interesting approach where obviously clubs are normally joined together.

(00:33:17):
So they have this idea of like shared resources,

(00:33:19):
which I think is a really good way to utilize funding and also then to tap into a

(00:33:23):
lot of the men's sports where there is a lot of money flowing through.

(00:33:29):
Yeah, so I guess that was one of the questions which I wanted to ask you about.

(00:33:33):
So about how to grow women's sports.

(00:33:35):
And you just touched upon like sort of men's sports being sort of like getting some

(00:33:41):
funding from them to sort of,

(00:33:44):
yeah,

(00:33:45):
to sort of grow women's sports.

(00:33:46):
Yeah.

(00:33:49):
Is there a way just,

(00:33:52):
is there a way to sort of,

(00:33:53):
I guess,

(00:33:54):
a lot of people,

(00:33:55):
particularly on social media,

(00:33:56):
I guess,

(00:33:56):
will say like,

(00:33:57):
you're siphoning money,

(00:33:58):
which you did not earn.

(00:33:59):
Is there a way to sort of counter that narrative?

(00:34:05):
Yeah,

(00:34:05):
I think there's kind of two main points that come to mind for me and maybe Lily

(00:34:09):
will be able to have some others.

(00:34:10):
But I think firstly,

(00:34:11):
it's the idea of equity versus equality is the one I definitely want to start with.

(00:34:16):
Like when we think about,

(00:34:17):
like I was talking about before,

(00:34:19):
like men's rugby in Aotearoa has been established and well run for over a century,

(00:34:23):
you know.

(00:34:24):
So women at the moment are having to compete with having,

(00:34:28):
you know,

(00:34:28):
super rugby has existed for three years.

(00:34:32):
So, you know, and women's... 97 years behind.

(00:34:35):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:34:36):
And so we've kind of got that to contest with.

(00:34:38):
But also actually alongside of that comes structures and systems that women's sport

(00:34:42):
are having to operate in that were built specifically by men and for men and

(00:34:47):
actually to exclude us.

(00:34:48):
You know,

(00:34:48):
there are a lot of legislative things,

(00:34:51):
not only socio-cultural things,

(00:34:53):
but,

(00:34:54):
you know,

(00:34:54):
rules and guidelines that specifically excluded us from participating in sport at

(00:34:58):
certain levels.

(00:34:59):
So I think that's always the thing to keep in mind when we're thinking about when

(00:35:03):
money is earned and not.

(00:35:04):
I think women's sports don't always get the opportunity in New Zealand rugby to

(00:35:10):
showcase their best.

(00:35:11):
I think the second thing is

(00:35:14):
thinking about when we look at the amount of money that is invested in a in women's

(00:35:20):
sport versus men's sport it is just crazy the difference um and you know people

(00:35:26):
often comment on oh well you know the women's sport product isn't as good or they

(00:35:31):
don't earn as much you know they're not earning the viewership so why should they

(00:35:35):
get xyz it's like well actually you know from any economic perspective if i invest

(00:35:41):
10k in my favorite cafe and someone else invests 100k in another cafe this cafe is

(00:35:46):
going to be able to get all the better equipment do everything better um and you

(00:35:51):
know it's things like women um so sorry for the cricket world cup that we hosted

(00:35:57):
here

(00:35:59):
uh, 2021, early 2021 was the first time that they had flown women business class.

(00:36:05):
So like other, so when they arrived here, they were able to train straight away.

(00:36:09):
Um,

(00:36:10):
you know,

(00:36:10):
we see all of these,

(00:36:11):
these things that there is so many case studies on the women's,

(00:36:15):
uh,

(00:36:15):
2020 world cup final in 2000.

(00:36:17):
And I want to say it was 2021 as well.

(00:36:21):
Um, we kind of actually had this explosion of, you know, when you and like,

(00:36:26):
Lo and behold,

(00:36:27):
when you invest the same money,

(00:36:28):
same amount of money into their players' performance and the facilities,

(00:36:33):
like as in paying more money so the women can train on the first field,

(00:36:37):
not the second field,

(00:36:38):
all those types of things,

(00:36:40):
the product is better.

(00:36:41):
When the product is better,

(00:36:42):
like I think they had one of the highest,

(00:36:44):
that 2020 World Cup final had one of the highest viewerships.

(00:36:48):
out of any cricket game that Cricket England had hosted.

(00:36:54):
So I think that's definitely a thing is that when you don't invest the same amount

(00:36:58):
into the product,

(00:36:59):
you cannot expect the same

(00:37:01):
ROI or return on investment and I think from so those are all the money so we're

(00:37:06):
thinking about a systems approach that equity risk quality we're thinking about

(00:37:10):
just a blunt economic approach but I think second so thirdly a point that people

(00:37:17):
often forget and it's one that a lot of people will experience as amateur athletes

(00:37:22):
is that for example I

(00:37:24):
I always rant about it because the inequality is the highest in rugby.

(00:37:28):
Our super rugby,

(00:37:29):
Ōpiki Wahine,

(00:37:31):
so they have to,

(00:37:32):
they are only contracted,

(00:37:34):
most of them,

(00:37:35):
for four or five months of the year.

(00:37:36):
Within that, they are only contracted for four days a week.

(00:37:41):
So they then have to go and find a job that they can work Monday to Tuesday who

(00:37:46):
will allow them to have,

(00:37:48):
sorry,

(00:37:49):
Monday to Wednesday,

(00:37:49):
who will allow them to have Thursday and Friday off every week.

(00:37:53):
of which most of the women,

(00:37:55):
so one of my friends played for one of the teams,

(00:37:58):
she's also a fellow researcher,

(00:38:00):
she was just running off fumes.

(00:38:03):
You know, they're exhausted.

(00:38:04):
And so then they come on TV and people were like,

(00:38:07):
oh,

(00:38:08):
why can't they offer the same product as the men?

(00:38:10):
It's like because these women are, you know, when you don't get to be being an athlete,

(00:38:15):
um for your whole life sorry for your whole being it's really hard particularly in

(00:38:19):
a sport where your commodity unfortunately the commodity that most people see is

(00:38:24):
your body and you know we know and that you know if we think about our brains and

(00:38:30):
the role that fatigue plays you know in sport or in life more generally but you

(00:38:36):
know in sport and exercise you know the most important thing you can do for your

(00:38:41):
body is rest and sleep

(00:38:43):
and recover like that is how all the good athletes are able to play for as long as

(00:38:47):
possible but you know these women are having to deal with two jobs and then god

(00:38:52):
forbid they get pregnant you know god forbid they get an injury um and i i also

(00:38:58):
think sorry while i'm here i think we're really really there's a

(00:39:03):
There is such a double standard on female athletes on what they're allowed to do and not.

(00:39:08):
I've heard a few athletes talk about this actually,

(00:39:12):
like how it's just this culture that a netball,

(00:39:16):
it's just not done to have a drink in the changing room after the game.

(00:39:20):
Because, A, I should say they don't have their own changing rooms.

(00:39:23):
You know,

(00:39:24):
but there's this kind of culture around,

(00:39:26):
yeah,

(00:39:27):
being these really well-put-together women that embody societal values.

(00:39:33):
Whether, you know, we have this other standard for men, this boys will be boys type situation.

(00:39:39):
Yeah.

(00:39:40):
Yeah,

(00:39:40):
but probably to recap that,

(00:39:42):
I think my main things are equity versus equality,

(00:39:44):
the amount of investment that we give into women's sport or don't.

(00:39:49):
And then thinking about women, you know, being a lot of the time pseudo professional athletes.

(00:39:55):
And I also would always,

(00:39:58):
this is a spot I always want to advocate for this for anyone who's listening to this.

(00:40:03):
There are so many different ways you can interact with women's sport that will make

(00:40:07):
a big difference because I feel like at the moment,

(00:40:12):
society has moved forward and how they want to consume women's sport it's our

(00:40:18):
national sporting organizations and other powers that be that are stuck with values

(00:40:23):
and views that i don't think represent what children now for example are

(00:40:27):
experiencing um you know we we want to be able to buy black ferns merchandise i

(00:40:34):
want to be able to buy opiki merchandise i want to be able to

(00:40:38):
view sport you know I want to be able to view sport not on weird illegal streams

(00:40:42):
even though it's in Australia so I think for anyone watching this the more you can

(00:40:47):
engage with women's sport the more we give signals to the powers that be that like

(00:40:51):
we are actually interested and that old adage that people don't watch women's sport

(00:40:55):
is untrue Sky Sport released some numbers the other week that just blew that out of

(00:41:01):
the water but there's a lot of values I think

(00:41:05):
being held true to people's hearts in boardrooms where decisions are made.

(00:41:10):
Totally.

(00:41:11):
So, so true.

(00:41:12):
Sorry,

(00:41:13):
I've got a complete rant on that,

(00:41:15):
but anyone who will listen,

(00:41:17):
I'm like,

(00:41:17):
you can make a difference!

(00:41:19):
I was laughing it up.

(00:41:21):
And it's so true that the World Cups and having three back-to-back,

(00:41:27):
rugby,

(00:41:28):
cricket and football,

(00:41:30):
all hosted in Aotearoa,

(00:41:31):
was so powerful and it really was a visible...

(00:41:36):
display of how much people will get behind women's sport.

(00:41:40):
And also that narrative that, oh, it's only women who watch women's sport.

(00:41:45):
A, can I just say, women make up 51% of the population.

(00:41:49):
So what if it is only women that watch women's sport?

(00:41:51):
Because we actually are slightly more of the majority.

(00:41:54):
And so if we get a woman watching women's sport,

(00:41:56):
that's actually more than the amount of men who watch men's sport.

(00:41:59):
And maybe we're only watching men's sport because we haven't had much opportunity

(00:42:02):
to watch quality women's sport.

(00:42:04):
But then also,

(00:42:05):
when I was sitting in some of those games for the Women's Football World Cup,

(00:42:11):
there was dads with their daughters.

(00:42:13):
There was mums with their sons.

(00:42:16):
There was so many men and young boys in those audiences.

(00:42:20):
And you'd hear all these comments being like, this is amazing.

(00:42:23):
This is so entertaining.

(00:42:24):
This is much more family friendly as an environment.

(00:42:29):
not like men throwing cans of beer around and chanting vulgar chants.

(00:42:36):
I mean, I go to the Men's Phoenix Games, so I'm partial to a little bit of that.

(00:42:40):
But,

(00:42:40):
you know,

(00:42:43):
it provides that environment that's actually a lot more enjoyable for a large

(00:42:49):
percentage of our population.

(00:42:50):
Yeah.

(00:42:53):
So many myths to dispel, hey, we could go on and on.

(00:42:56):
I...

(00:42:59):
This is a stat which I know,

(00:43:00):
well,

(00:43:01):
stat as in like it's a history fact,

(00:43:02):
which I know that women's football used to get more crowds in England than men's

(00:43:07):
football in the early 1950s until they banned women from playing sports because it

(00:43:15):
was not good for them.

(00:43:17):
And you're just like, you've taken that away and then you're trying to build it up again.

(00:43:23):
and all those lost years.

(00:43:24):
I know this is,

(00:43:27):
I know this next example is not woman related,

(00:43:29):
but it's a sport related thing,

(00:43:30):
which is kind of like emphasizes it in India.

(00:43:33):
Football was really big in the 1950s.

(00:43:35):
Like they made the Olympic semifinals and all of that.

(00:43:37):
And then they were banned from football.

(00:43:40):
And so the Indian men's football team was banned from football.

(00:43:44):
And that's when hockey and cricket took up.

(00:43:47):
And now people are trying to grow football again,

(00:43:50):
but it was,

(00:43:51):
they were banned for so many years that,

(00:43:53):
Nobody played it.

(00:43:54):
And then nobody watched it.

(00:43:56):
And then how is it going to grow?

(00:43:57):
So,

(00:43:58):
I mean,

(00:43:59):
that same argument,

(00:43:59):
and Erin pointed out so well during,

(00:44:02):
you say it was a rant,

(00:44:03):
but it was basically like a lecture.

(00:44:04):
It was very, like, very informative and clear.

(00:44:08):
And you know you're a lecturer because you're giving all of these clear points in

(00:44:11):
succinct manners.

(00:44:13):
Firstly, secondly, thirdly, yeah.

(00:44:15):
I always want my message to come across.

(00:44:19):
Yeah.

(00:44:21):
But about the infancy of women's sporting organizations and the investment it takes.

(00:44:29):
The NBA did not become this huge thing overnight.

(00:44:33):
It took years and years.

(00:44:34):
In the 60s, no one was watching it and it had to grow.

(00:44:38):
And it takes some time.

(00:44:40):
It needs that exposure.

(00:44:41):
And yeah,

(00:44:42):
you guys said having three World Cups in Aotearoa really helps exposing not just

(00:44:47):
women's sport,

(00:44:48):
but different types of women's sport,

(00:44:49):
right?

(00:44:49):
Rugby, cricket, football.

(00:44:51):
the more you watch, the more you know you have options.

(00:44:55):
Totally.

(00:44:55):
And I think, you know, I will say, I know a lot of other people feel the same.

(00:45:00):
I feel disappointed,

(00:45:02):
I think,

(00:45:03):
thinking about those years of women's sport here,

(00:45:05):
you know,

(00:45:06):
and where we are now in terms of the lack of investment that I think followed up

(00:45:10):
with the success of that.

(00:45:11):
And I think it's a really good example of how,

(00:45:13):
you know,

(00:45:13):
I'll never forget,

(00:45:14):
honestly,

(00:45:15):
I will never forget being in Eden Park,

(00:45:19):
you know standing there in a sold out stadium of people coming to watch women's

(00:45:24):
rugby and that last try that we scored and you know things like hearing people

(00:45:31):
knowing all the players names and you know I think it just goes and that was

(00:45:35):
actually the second time Eden Park had been sold out you know so people want it but

(00:45:40):
we just honestly the lack of investment we see in women's sports from their own

(00:45:45):
bodies and

(00:45:48):
is really, yeah, is really hard.

(00:45:50):
And it's disappointing to think that we're almost three years on and the women are

(00:45:55):
still getting paid 17K before tax to play Super Rugby Opiki.

(00:46:00):
You know, like it's costing some of them money.

(00:46:03):
So I think whenever I feel, yeah, whenever I feel a bit sad about it,

(00:46:08):
I always think about those events.

(00:46:10):
And I think, you know, as you said as well, Lily, like Aotearoa showed up.

(00:46:14):
And I think it was a good example that Aotearoa showed up for the sport.

(00:46:18):
But they also showed up because it was a different product.

(00:46:22):
You know, hosting that Football World Cup.

(00:46:24):
Different communities in Wellington that I didn't know were so big showed up.

(00:46:29):
Like, I remember the Football Ferns Philippines game.

(00:46:33):
It was not a nice night.

(00:46:34):
It was a random Tuesday night in the middle of winter in Wellington.

(00:46:37):
and the filipino population of wellington just like you know came out and i don't

(00:46:41):
know it makes me always think about the role that sport plays and people being able

(00:46:45):
to express their culture and identity and that you know women's sport is a real way

(00:46:49):
that people can do that because they can bring their families along and i can

(00:46:55):
guarantee you the filipino communities are loud ones you would have been hearing

(00:46:58):
them from outside the stadium as well they'd be like 3 000 people but they'd make

(00:47:02):
more noise than

(00:47:05):
And they won, so I'm still not over that one.

(00:47:08):
Yeah, yeah, that's still a tough rag to think about.

(00:47:12):
Why'd you bring that up here and I'm still not over it?

(00:47:14):
I'm so sorry.

(00:47:16):
Hannah Wilkinson's offside with her hand.

(00:47:20):
Just because she's tall.

(00:47:22):
Anyway.

(00:47:24):
Can't have long limbs.

(00:47:25):
VAR doesn't like that.

(00:47:29):
Concussion injury.

(00:47:30):
Yeah.

(00:47:35):
There was another point which you brought up which I wanted to expand on and that

(00:47:41):
was with the investment because it's come back and forth to this a lot of times

(00:47:46):
where like clearly the top level also particularly in women's sports does not have

(00:47:50):
that investment but then also most of the investments which people do get do end up

(00:47:55):
going to the top well we talked about the All Blacks for rugby mainly but then I

(00:47:59):
guess even for basketball and all they go to the top.

(00:48:02):
How do we sort of

(00:48:05):
improve that as well,

(00:48:06):
because we're talking about the discrepancy between community funding versus top

(00:48:11):
level funding.

(00:48:13):
And I guess when the top are already not getting paid enough in a lot of cases.

(00:48:18):
Yeah, how do as some people who work in that field, how do you sort of square that circle?

(00:48:23):
Yeah,

(00:48:24):
and I hate,

(00:48:24):
I'm going to say this point,

(00:48:25):
I'd like to preface,

(00:48:26):
I don't want to be too harsh on the organisations that are already doing a lot of work.

(00:48:31):
But I think something that I've seen recently,

(00:48:33):
and you know,

(00:48:34):
it always comes back to a big system,

(00:48:36):
doesn't it?

(00:48:36):
Is that I think for a long time,

(00:48:38):
a lot of sports here,

(00:48:40):
you know,

(00:48:40):
I think about netball,

(00:48:41):
we're quite heavily reliant on Sky Sport funding.

(00:48:44):
So obviously we think about those kind of neoliberal shifts and sport being a pay-to-view thing.

(00:48:51):
uh was able to you know put a lot of funding into the industry and i it had for so

(00:48:56):
long and i think what that meant is it stifled people's ability to be able to be um

(00:49:01):
creative and commercial in the way that they were thinking because you just didn't

(00:49:04):
need to but i think what we've seen recently is you know over the last few years

(00:49:08):
sky sport has been pulling away their funding from netball um i think obviously

(00:49:12):
because we have a really new tv market now don't we like like sky is not the only

(00:49:17):
place you can view hundreds of different channels um

(00:49:20):
And so we've had to see Netball New Zealand become a little bit more innovative

(00:49:23):
with how they think about funding.

(00:49:25):
I would also say from another systemic place is, you know, you see this in corporates, right?

(00:49:32):
In big corporate organisations,

(00:49:33):
you have people that are like,

(00:49:34):
they're your sales experts,

(00:49:36):
you know,

(00:49:36):
they will go into rooms,

(00:49:38):
they can cut deals,

(00:49:39):
they can talk about money.

(00:49:41):
But they also then, in reflection, get paid a salary that matches that.

(00:49:46):
Whereas because the sports sector,

(00:49:48):
you know,

(00:49:48):
it's not a sector you work in to make lots of money.

(00:49:50):
I find often we struggle to attract those really big commercial brains that could

(00:49:57):
think about how organisations could be funded differently and go to the likes of likes.

(00:50:02):
you know um even what two degrees is doing now but like you know two degrees and z

(00:50:06):
and put forward really cool commercial products i think sometimes the ip for that

(00:50:12):
doesn't exist in the sports sector but we really need it to to help us but um for

(00:50:17):
them why would you take such a big pay cut um and so i think that's where one of

(00:50:22):
the things starts and i think um

(00:50:27):
Yeah, it's a hard market at the moment fiscally to get any type of commercial funding.

(00:50:32):
But I think in an ideal world,

(00:50:34):
I would love to see more funding going into for people seeing a product that's

(00:50:40):
attractive as community level sport.

(00:50:42):
But I mean, honestly, I know that even...

(00:50:45):
I mean,

(00:50:45):
men's sport at the moment is struggling to get naming right sponsors and the Pulse have,

(00:50:50):
you know,

(00:50:51):
so it's a tough market,

(00:50:52):
but I think I would love,

(00:50:53):
you know,

(00:50:53):
like,

(00:50:53):
and we've seen that in the likes of one of the owners of the Northern Kahu was from

(00:50:58):
America and she somehow got BNZ to purchase all of their tickets.

(00:51:03):
for the season.

(00:51:04):
You know, that's quite a cool commercial model or the two degrees fighting for fear.

(00:51:08):
So I think we just,

(00:51:09):
there's the expertise in New Zealand,

(00:51:10):
but they don't work in the sports sector because they don't think they'd get

(00:51:13):
re-enumerated what they're used to or what they probably should be paid.

(00:51:16):
But yeah,

(00:51:17):
I think we need a little bit of a big shake up to think about how we can show

(00:51:20):
people a market sport more as a,

(00:51:23):
you know,

(00:51:23):
as a commodity.

(00:51:24):
Yeah, Lily, do you have any other thoughts on that?

(00:51:32):
No, not necessarily.

(00:51:33):
I have another question that I want to ask, which is a total pivot.

(00:51:36):
Are we pivoting?

(00:51:39):
Are we allowed to pivot?

(00:51:40):
Pivot.

(00:51:40):
Go on.

(00:51:43):
We've sort of touched on it a little bit with talking about the kind of high

(00:51:47):
performance value and visibility of female athletes and the leadership and the role

(00:51:55):
modeling that they can provide.

(00:51:57):
But I'd love,

(00:51:58):
Erin,

(00:51:59):
for you to talk a bit more about how anyone in sport can be a role model and can be

(00:52:03):
a leader,

(00:52:04):
because obviously there's a role that you can play whether you're in a team and

(00:52:10):
you're role modeling to younger teammates or less experienced teammates,

(00:52:14):
or there's a role you can play whether you're a coach,

(00:52:16):
just coaching some really low-grade basketball on a weekday evening.

(00:52:21):
You know,

(00:52:21):
like there's so many ways that you can influence and I'd love for you to touch on

(00:52:25):
that so that we're not just talking about up here what the big shiny stars are

(00:52:29):
looking like when there's people who are doing awesome stuff and can lead at a

(00:52:34):
grassroots level.

(00:52:35):
Yeah,

(00:52:36):
so I think probably the first point that I want to touch on,

(00:52:40):
and I think inherently in sport,

(00:52:42):
we're quite obsessed with it,

(00:52:43):
and I'm not sure why,

(00:52:45):
is this idea around positional leadership.

(00:52:47):
So I think that often,

(00:52:49):
I guess because the nature of sports,

(00:52:51):
I think the nature of sport is often that there is seen to be this embedded hierarchy,

(00:52:55):
and often that hierarchy looks like top team,

(00:52:59):
or it looks like captain or coach.

(00:53:01):
And so you have a lot of people who get – and then that flows up into the way sport

(00:53:07):
is governed as well.

(00:53:08):
I think we have a lot of positional recycling in the sector where people get –

(00:53:14):
different their new role by virtue of having had a previous role but I think what

(00:53:19):
you know a point to articulate is there's only so many positional leadership roles

(00:53:23):
right and that doesn't mean that that's the only way to lead and I think we see a

(00:53:27):
lot of people every day and hopefully people who are listening to this podcast

(00:53:31):
right now

(00:53:32):
can see themselves in that,

(00:53:33):
that there are people leading in so many different ways,

(00:53:35):
particularly in sport,

(00:53:36):
because I find often you get people in sport who just genuinely want to help.

(00:53:41):
And so they don't consider themselves as leaders.

(00:53:43):
But, you know, it's like the people that are down there volunteer managing

(00:53:48):
the first signal third 11 and creating a safe space for people to come to after work.

(00:53:53):
Like I think about a lot of the women,

(00:53:56):
like one of the ones I think of is jog on in Wellington,

(00:53:59):
you know,

(00:54:00):
people who have created safe places,

(00:54:03):
spaces for women to come and run at all levels and i think what is what's the

(00:54:08):
problem with considering people as leaders when they're only in positional

(00:54:11):
leadership titles is that you forget that there's so many different ways to lead um

(00:54:15):
and when we're thinking about so i was linking it back to like the broader picture

(00:54:19):
of sport and the kind of socio-cultural difference it can make um it's not

(00:54:24):
necessarily at high performance level because i think high performance level is

(00:54:27):
representative

(00:54:29):
of the state that particular sport is in at its grassroots level, right?

(00:54:33):
And,

(00:54:34):
you know,

(00:54:35):
probably 98% of people who participate in sport are nervous before they show up to

(00:54:39):
their first training.

(00:54:41):
They, as an older adult, have had to get through some barriers to even make it there.

(00:54:46):
They've gone and bought their first pair of football boots for a long time and they

(00:54:49):
feel a bit silly.

(00:54:51):
You know,

(00:54:51):
and then this person comes to an environment that was created that's safe for them

(00:54:55):
and they can go to

(00:54:56):
And all of a sudden, they're now hooked on football again.

(00:54:59):
They've made some new friends and they're confident and they take that into other

(00:55:03):
phases of their life.

(00:55:04):
And as I said,

(00:55:05):
I think sport is full of amazing volunteers who just don't get the credit that's

(00:55:10):
due for the impact,

(00:55:11):
the broader impact I think they're having on society.

(00:55:13):
And leading in so many different ways that are just unseen, you know, and unrecognized.

(00:55:23):
yeah so that's a great question Lily and I always love talking about it because I

(00:55:27):
want other people who are seeing this to hopefully look at you know to change the

(00:55:32):
narrative from oh I just do this or I just play on a Thursday or I'm just on the

(00:55:38):
team committee it's like no no if you're on the team committee you're participating

(00:55:42):
in governance and that means that we need your thinking and your passion on our

(00:55:47):
national level sports boards you know to change the sector that we're operating in

(00:55:53):
I think that's very well put.

(00:55:55):
It really highlights the importance.

(00:55:57):
And I think the other thing which you touched upon,

(00:55:59):
which isn't necessarily the main point of what you said,

(00:56:03):
was about sort of making friends and creating a safe space for people to be able to

(00:56:09):
do that and build community.

(00:56:10):
And I think that's

(00:56:12):
that becomes increasingly more important.

(00:56:14):
And sports is probably one of the best vehicles to do that, particularly post COVID.

(00:56:18):
It's become like, I think, personally, one of the most important things.

(00:56:21):
I moved to Scotland and almost all my friends are from the sports clubs,

(00:56:24):
which I've like joined here.

(00:56:27):
And yeah,

(00:56:28):
it's not that I'm good at it or great at anything,

(00:56:31):
but it's just like,

(00:56:31):
it's fun to be around.

(00:56:35):
And it's only because of like volunteers and organizers that you have a space like

(00:56:39):
that to actually do something.

(00:56:41):
And particularly,

(00:56:41):
I'm not sure if you've seen this statistic,

(00:56:43):
which everyone,

(00:56:45):
I think,

(00:56:45):
in the sports sector in Aotearoa is always trying to figure out why does it exist

(00:56:50):
and how can we fix it?

(00:56:51):
There's this thing called the drop-off,

(00:56:53):
isn't there,

(00:56:54):
Lily,

(00:56:54):
around the way that women engage and participate in sport,

(00:56:57):
and particularly young women.

(00:56:58):
So we see quite a substantial drop-off.

(00:57:00):
compared to men so i should say compared to men quite a substantial drop off for

(00:57:04):
women between the ages of 16 and 17 and then that gap gets even bigger between the

(00:57:10):
ages of 17 and 19 and so if we kind of think about the lifelong benefits that you

(00:57:15):
know people get from participating in sport and i think for particularly for women

(00:57:18):
when you are you know seldom are we in environments where it is um female only and

(00:57:24):
it's not an environment where we're also having to deal with like patriarchal

(00:57:28):
values is

(00:57:29):
women's sports teams are really safe space to do that like um and you know i think

(00:57:34):
about we have this really disproportionate drop off and you know wondering why that

(00:57:38):
exists and um i think about all the women that are missing out on these things um

(00:57:43):
yeah that's just something else for anyone's listening sport new zealand's done a

(00:57:46):
bit of research on the numbers and that but it's a it's a problem that we're always

(00:57:51):
trying to think about and solve yeah oh i've known about this like the number of

(00:57:57):
friends i guess

(00:57:58):
a number of my friends who girls who played lots of sport in high school and then

(00:58:04):
as soon as like they went to uni or after they just don't play anymore um and yeah

(00:58:11):
not not even not even sort of recreationally well like most of the guys who i know

(00:58:17):
still find some sort of activity like no nowhere near as much as like when we were

(00:58:23):
school kids but like most of them still sort of

(00:58:26):
play some sport somewhere i can see it on their instagram stories from time to time

(00:58:29):
so yeah but don't see anything like that for the girls um so yeah it's it's

(00:58:35):
interesting what are the reasons for it do you know because i feel there'd be a lot

(00:58:38):
that i could think of a few off the top of my head but yeah i mean contract

(00:58:44):
immediately

(00:58:46):
I mean,

(00:58:46):
this is my main thought goes to thinking about,

(00:58:51):
well,

(00:58:52):
I firstly go back to the point around the value that we place on sport and being

(00:58:58):
good at sport.

(00:59:00):
And I think for women,

(00:59:01):
because I would say it is still not as socially acceptable to participate in sport

(00:59:07):
for women as what you would think.

(00:59:09):
And so

(00:59:10):
I think layering that in,

(00:59:12):
if you've all of a sudden moved to a new city,

(00:59:15):
you were labelled not that great at school,

(00:59:18):
at sport,

(00:59:19):
and then it's also not as acceptable for you to be participating in sport.

(00:59:24):
You know,

(00:59:25):
I think a lot of women feel like the only way that they should be able to play

(00:59:28):
sport is if they're good at it because that's the only way to kind of overcome this

(00:59:32):
barrier of what people perceive as being –

(00:59:37):
sorry,

(00:59:37):
I'm putting this in quotation marks because I don't believe in it,

(00:59:39):
as being,

(00:59:40):
you know,

(00:59:40):
more masculine or that kind of laddie culture that a lot of people see.

(00:59:45):
So I do think there's a lot of societal values that do play into that.

(00:59:49):
And I think –

(00:59:51):
I just think as well,

(00:59:52):
there's not enough safe spaces for women where it's like,

(00:59:55):
Hey,

(00:59:55):
like,

(00:59:56):
isn't,

(00:59:56):
I think about,

(00:59:57):
um,

(00:59:57):
what the,

(00:59:58):
well,

(00:59:58):
is it Lily Wellington women's football Academy?

(01:00:01):
I did over the off season where they created a space.

(01:00:05):
It was just for beginners.

(01:00:06):
Like,

(01:00:06):
like there's all this labeling that I think we need to use as well to encourage

(01:00:09):
women into the space.

(01:00:10):
Um,

(01:00:11):
because i think men do feel from what i can see and kind of is in the research um

(01:00:17):
that men are more confident to go into sporting environment spaces because i think

(01:00:20):
they feel like they belong there which is awesome you know but for women there's

(01:00:24):
those barriers and i always think about um my wonderful friend i'm gonna call her a

(01:00:30):
friend

(01:00:31):
Her name is Robin Coburn, and she's really passionate about active recreation.

(01:00:36):
And she's the kind of person that whenever you drive past a playground or a field,

(01:00:40):
she'll have a statistic for you on the usage of the field.

(01:00:43):
And for women,

(01:00:44):
for example,

(01:00:45):
if you think about a field at a school or a playground,

(01:00:49):
she said that particularly on a field,

(01:00:51):
the boys,

(01:00:52):
90% of the time,

(01:00:53):
the usage is right in the middle of the field.

(01:00:56):
so ultimately the girls are then relegated to the sides and why that is relevant is

(01:01:01):
because when we think about so boys feel the right to be on the field right in the

(01:01:04):
middle of it and that's the safe place for them to be and I'm not hating on that

(01:01:08):
because I think everyone should be wanting to play in sport and

(01:01:11):
that systemic things and societal values are not for young children to fix but then

(01:01:16):
ultimately I think what it leads into is that women feel like they need to overcome

(01:01:20):
more barriers to participate in sport because they were never the ones that were

(01:01:23):
welcome in the middle of the field or the center of the playground and so there's

(01:01:27):
actually which any schools are listening and want to talk to me more about this

(01:01:31):
there's actually a lot of research that's been done on if you can have assigned

(01:01:35):
days on the field women will play sport they'll play rugby they'll play football it

(01:01:40):
if it's a women's only scheduled day.

(01:01:42):
And I do think that that really leads into them feeling like sport is a place they

(01:01:47):
belong and they should be able to participate in.

(01:01:49):
And then I think,

(01:01:51):
you know,

(01:01:51):
when you move to a new city or something is more expensive or you don't know anyone

(01:01:54):
and it's scary,

(01:01:55):
if you can remove one of those barriers,

(01:01:57):
like,

(01:01:57):
hey,

(01:01:58):
I've always played social football.

(01:02:00):
Just because I've moved to a new city doesn't mean I shouldn't anymore, you know.

(01:02:05):
So, I mean, I think that a lot of that drop-off exists because, yeah,

(01:02:10):
of a lot of the systemic structures that we have.

(01:02:15):
Unfortunately,

(01:02:15):
and this is always where my brain goes,

(01:02:18):
too big system issues and they're not easily fixed,

(01:02:23):
but I think can easily be fixed by the culture and the way that we speak to our

(01:02:26):
friends every day about sport and women in sport and all that kind of stuff.

(01:02:30):
So I think we do have the power to influence and change that.

(01:02:33):
But yeah,

(01:02:34):
Lily,

(01:02:34):
as someone who works in that space,

(01:02:36):
what do you see or anything different,

(01:02:38):
more practical than perhaps my big ideas of how to change the world?

(01:02:42):
Oh,

(01:02:46):
I 100% agree with what you're saying,

(01:02:47):
but I maybe want to flip it and say that there are a lot of small changes that can

(01:02:51):
be made that make a massive difference.

(01:02:53):
And you've kind of touched on a few of them already.

(01:02:56):
But from like a parent's point of view,

(01:03:00):
how can you,

(01:03:02):
I don't know if there's any parents of teenage girls listening,

(01:03:05):
how can you encourage your teenage daughters or even your 11,

(01:03:08):
12,

(01:03:08):
because it starts earlier than that,

(01:03:10):
how can you encourage them to get outside and kick a ball around or go try

(01:03:15):
skateboarding or something,

(01:03:16):
some kind of casual recreation that is kind of ingrained as,

(01:03:22):
so here you kind of mentioned like sport and recreation is ingrained in the sort of

(01:03:26):
male

(01:03:27):
social structures where it's like that's when you're hanging out with your mates as

(01:03:30):
you're going and mucking out playing playing around on your BMX bikes or kicking a

(01:03:34):
ball down at the park it's just not really and I think parents play a role in that

(01:03:39):
as well where they kind of see their daughter as

(01:03:44):
that doesn't kind of fit for them or they're kind of encouraging them to do other things.

(01:03:48):
But how can we create those spaces and encourage young girls to actually be getting

(01:03:52):
out and doing that?

(01:03:54):
How can schools create those spaces that are, as you say, Erin,

(01:03:59):
for girls or kind of give them that safe space.

(01:04:04):
Like if I think of locally,

(01:04:06):
we've got a couple of schools like Aotea College,

(01:04:08):
Porirua College in Wellington who are doing girls only sports days,

(01:04:14):
which are led by the students and like the prefects.

(01:04:16):
But ultimately the PE teacher or the dean have enabled or the principal even have

(01:04:21):
enabled that to happen by saying,

(01:04:23):
hey,

(01:04:23):
so-and-so,

(01:04:24):
do you want to run a girls sports day?

(01:04:26):
or so and so do you want to um use some funding that we've been given to run a

(01:04:31):
girls only climbing course which is something i've just heard has been happening um

(01:04:36):
where girls are wanting to do rock climbing but they're wanting to do it in in

(01:04:38):
their own safe um safe way and then when you get to that age where you pass the

(01:04:44):
drop off and um

(01:04:46):
and you're at university or you've been in full-time employment for a little while

(01:04:50):
or you've had kids and you haven't played sport at all or you haven't played sport

(01:04:54):
since you were maybe 13,

(01:04:56):
14,

(01:04:56):
how do you create a space that's safe to say,

(01:04:58):
hey,

(01:04:58):
if you rock up and you...

(01:05:01):
have never held a hockey stick or you've never kicked a ball before,

(01:05:06):
that's okay and we'll teach you the basics.

(01:05:09):
Because even as someone who has played football since I was maybe nine or ten years old,

(01:05:14):
there's some basics that I was just never taught because there was such less

(01:05:18):
investment and

(01:05:21):
support and resource for girls football back then that there wasn't the coaches to

(01:05:27):
teach me and so now I'm in my late 20s and I'm being taught how to how to kick a

(01:05:33):
ball properly which I was never taught so it's just you know it's revolutionary and

(01:05:38):
I think it's so much easier than we think it is but it just takes those amazing

(01:05:42):
people to just have an idea and just run with it

(01:05:45):
Like the Women's Football Centre.

(01:05:46):
Shout out to Kimberly.

(01:05:49):
Hit them up on Instagram.

(01:05:51):
Sorry,

(01:05:51):
while we're here,

(01:05:52):
just one other thought that I had,

(01:05:54):
and it's,

(01:05:55):
I guess,

(01:05:55):
a thought and a challenge I would like to lay out too,

(01:05:59):
is that I think that when we think about the commodification of sport,

(01:06:03):
and then,

(01:06:04):
you know,

(01:06:04):
further,

(01:06:04):
I was talking about what an asset,

(01:06:07):
one of our biggest assets in sport is our physical body.

(01:06:10):
And I think when you think about the broader societal views on women's bodies and

(01:06:16):
what healthy looks like for women,

(01:06:20):
we're very,

(01:06:21):
very harshly judged on that.

(01:06:22):
And then when we think about a lot of the uniforms that women have to wear.

(01:06:26):
So I think about netball, right, as one of the biggest participated sports.

(01:06:30):
And a lot of women do pick it up at a later age.

(01:06:32):
But having to wear a dress.

(01:06:35):
uh that those dresses just really cling on to every bit of your body that society

(01:06:40):
makes you feel uncomfortable about um and you know we even see that so i used to

(01:06:45):
play beach handball obviously that was a very crude example we had to wear bikinis

(01:06:49):
um but i think when we think about um why a lot of women perhaps also drop off or

(01:06:53):
stop playing sport is that you know we are so harshly judged for our bodies and the

(01:06:57):
way they look and

(01:06:58):
There is obviously a certain perception, which I love.

(01:07:02):
A fantastic researcher called Dr.

(01:07:04):
Stacey Sims is really debunking a lot of what healthy looks like for women.

(01:07:08):
But I think for women who maybe aren't feeling as comfortable in their bodies,

(01:07:12):
feel like they're actually not entitled to participate in sport because they're not healthy.

(01:07:17):
And so I think you kind of,

(01:07:20):
this is where,

(01:07:20):
again,

(01:07:21):
linking it back into,

(01:07:21):
you know,

(01:07:22):
I was thinking about your original questions to hear around thinking about,

(01:07:25):
They're different.

(01:07:26):
We think about the intersections between sport and these really broad societal

(01:07:32):
values and views that are still held about women and us,

(01:07:36):
and they just intersect at almost,

(01:07:38):
you know,

(01:07:39):
every facade or facet of sport,

(01:07:41):
I think.

(01:07:43):
Yeah,

(01:07:43):
so I definitely think thinking about body image and the way society makes us feel

(01:07:48):
about our bodies perhaps means that some people feel like they don't belong or

(01:07:53):
they're not supposed to play sports.

(01:07:57):
Yeah,

(01:07:57):
just wanted to add that in there because I think it's really important to talk about,

(01:08:00):
especially for young women.

(01:08:01):
Totally.

(01:08:04):
Agreed, 100%.

(01:08:08):
Just because we've been recording for about an hour,

(01:08:10):
and I am...

(01:08:13):
Oh my god,

(01:08:14):
me and Lily really can't talk.

(01:08:17):
Been yapping too much, sorry.

(01:08:20):
And unfortunately, I need more money to upload longer episodes.

(01:08:25):
Give me some funding for the food brain.

(01:08:30):
yeah we need that as well so if people can like subscribe follow that will really

(01:08:34):
help me out then we can get erin on again to talk more or um but just just to wrap

(01:08:41):
up are there any other things which we didn't touch upon which you guys would like

(01:08:45):
to this time would love to have you guys on more talk keep having the discussion

(01:08:49):
but any sort of final thoughts

(01:08:53):
I think probably just my final thought is that even if it's small or big,

(01:08:59):
engaging with or participating in women's sport genuinely does make a really big

(01:09:04):
difference in terms of thinking about funding and elevating it.

(01:09:08):
And I think I'd also like to challenge everyone who's listening to reflect on the

(01:09:12):
ways in which they participate and can contribute to sport and recognise that what

(01:09:17):
they're probably doing is making a really substantial difference for someone else's life.

(01:09:23):
That's awesome.

(01:09:24):
So yeah, thank you so much.

(01:09:26):
Thank you, Lily, for co-hosting and coming on.

(01:09:32):
And thank you, Aaron, so much.

(01:09:34):
It was great having you.

(01:09:36):
And yeah, thank you, everybody, for listening.

(01:09:39):
So yeah, until next time, take care and bye-bye.