EJOP #3. The Impact of Financial Well-Being on Happiness - Dr. Cicilia Larasati Rembulan

In this episode of the Smooth Brain Society, Sahir and Amer engage with Dr. Cicilia Larasati Rembulan, Associate Professor from Universitas Ciputra, Indonesia, to discuss her recently published research on subjective well-being. The conversation explores the definitions of well-being, the measurement of happiness, and the role of social comparison and financial well-being in shaping life satisfaction among an Indonesian population sample. Dr. Rembulan shares her findings that social comparison does not significantly affect happiness, while financial well-being plays a crucial role. The discussion also delves into practical implications and future research directions.

Read the article here: https://ejop.psychopen.eu/index.php/ejop/article/view/14791

The Effects of Social Comparison and Subjective Financial Well-Being on Subjective Well-Being - Theda Renanita and Cicilia Larasati Rembulan

Chapters

• 0:00 Introductions
• 1:50 Understanding Subjective and Financial Wellbeing
• 5:25 Research Methodology and Data Collection
• 7:41 Background for this research
• 21:30 Findings From The Study
• 23:32 Understanding Social Comparison and Its Impact
• 28:37 The Role of Financial Well-Being
• 32:44 Demographics and Their Influence on Well-Being
• 36:06 Practical Implications of Financial Security
• 42:37 Future Directions in Research

Transcript

0:03

uh Welcome back to the SmoothBrain Society. I'm Sahir and I'm here with Amer today. uh We are doing another episode for Europe's Journal of Psychology. So for those of you who don't know, we are partnering with Europe's Journal of Psychology to sort of showcase some of the latest research being published in their journal. And today we... have a guest all the way from Indonesia joining us. So Cecilia Larasiti Rembulan. She is the Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of Ciputra at Surabaya, Indonesia. Is it Surabaya Indonesia? Surabaya Indonesia? How do you... Surabaya Surabaya from Surabaya, Indonesia. See, this is why you need to learn to pronounce foreign words. um But yeah, welcome, Cecilia. Thank you for coming on to the Smooth Brain Society. Hello, Sahir and Amer. Thank you for having me. It is pleasure to meet you in the podcast. Thank you. So Cecilia's interests are in social exchange, reciprocity, relationship exchange, power interplay, and community enterprise. uh She is here specifically to talk about her publication in Europe's Journal of Psychology. The publication is titled, How Can Subjective Well-being Be Increased? And the role of social comparison and subjective financial well-being in this process. So. Thank you for coming on again, Cecilia. think the first question which I should ask then is sort of definitions, I guess. So what do we mean by well-being and what do you mean by subjective well-being? Okay, so uh talk about the subjective well-being. There are two fundamental components. The first is life satisfaction and the second one is happiness. Happiness is all about our emotional state. It's that positive feeling we get when our social needs are met, like feeling valued or respected or being respected. So it includes both those brief moments of joy as well as longer lasting emotions like contentment. For life satisfaction, on the other hand, is more about the bigger picture. It's our overall evaluation of life, whether our basic needs like food and shelter are being met. So whether we feel that life as a whole is going well. So together, these two happiness and life satisfaction uh is called subjective well-being according to at dinner. the famous figure in psychology. Nice. So wait, how do you measure happiness then? I feel sort of you could measure, you said like life satisfaction being like your living conditions, things like that, your accessibility to ah needs. I feel that's easier to measure, but how do you measure something like your happiness or your contentment? So this is self-report measurement. So I use the Indonesian Family Life Survey. This is big data from RAN, the non-profit organization. They release periodically the data about Indonesia. But unfortunately, very few researchers from Indonesia publish from this data. So together with my colleague, Teda Renanita, which is also the first author of this paper, we are challenged to publish the journal from this data. So, if I understand it, so essentially you're asking people how they feel. And then I know the title because as you know, me and Amer have not read the paper. We're asking you, you're talking about financial wellbeing in the title as well. So again, is that subjective as well or is that more objective when we're talking about financial wellbeing? The financial well-being, eh the talk in the paper here is also subjective, not objective. So the subjective well-being is uh based on the personal standard, personal evaluation, and also the subjective financial well-being is about how do we satisfy with our financial condition in the present moment and in the future. So not how... how much the emergency fund that we have, like insurance and so on. So it is about subjective. And I didn't collect the data by myself because this is the big data from uh Indonesian Family Life Survey that conducted by RAND, the non-profit organization who opened their data. So I just analyzed the secondary data from them. I see. So was there any self-reporting involved in the financial well-being side as well or was that based on uh general statistics of based on cost of living and those sort of factors in Indonesia? So the data that we use in this research is based on the self-evaluation, only self-evaluation. Of course the RAN, the IFLS has another section of the data, but in this paper we only use the book 3A, so it is only about the self-evaluation, about the financial situation. So it is not based on the objective financial situation of them. uh I want to talk. Well, first can I ask because you said uh it's a massive survey which is conducted how many people or how many families? What are we talking about here? RAND usually survey around 80,000 people in Indonesia, but for this research we only use 3,700 something, around 3,000 people. Is there a reason for that? They just don't have the data for all 80,000 for financial and well-being, it? Or is there a reason for you only using 3,000? Because we have the criteria for the participants like the age and then Teda, co-researcher also tried to analyze the data first and then cut off to 3000. Oh because some of the criteria is not suitable so we only select the three thousand and seven hundred people. I'm interested a little bit in the background of what was the reason for you deciding to do this study. yeah, I'm quite interested in the sort of bigger picture of reasoning behind doing this. We've been talking about what you did a little bit, but yeah. Hmm, so it is more a personal background. uh At one day, I joined a workshop on using big data for research. That's where I first learned about IFLS, along with the study in Indonesia developed by RAN. ah But what surprised me was that many of studies using this data were not done by Indonesian. So together with my colleague, I felt challenged to take on this research ourselves. But when we take a look at the data, we also find the research gap, ah especially in the subjective well-being, social comparison, and subjective financial well-being. So we try to write the paper. So at the beginning it is a personal interest because a lot of people, a lot of researchers publish the paper and the data is about Indonesia. But Indonesian researcher is not writing about themselves. So that begs the question, so what aspects were they missing out on when they were producing their uh research and their uh surveys, survey reports? Do you mean the previous research done by other people? Usually they analyze using the economic perspective. As far as I know, like OLS, I also don't familiar with that analysis. So because Theda and me, uh our background is from psychology, so we tried to to read the psychological data like social comparison, subjective financial well-being and subjective well-being. Usually the other researcher focus on the economic side, not psychological side. So what does that mean for if somebody does not really know economics or does not really know psychology? When you say one group is looking at the same data from an economic side while the other group is looking from a psychological side, what does that mean to somebody who does not know the difference? Okay, from the economic side, uh they are focused on the objective side. For example, they will choose uh the objective standard like cost of living, like Amer said, like what the food that Indonesian eat, something like that, and the nutrition. and the the wage here and all the economical things here but for for me as a psychology psychologist it is more interesting for me to to explore the psychological things like well-being subjective financial well-being or social comparison rather than the exact number of the salary and the nutrition, etc. It is very factual and objective. So correct me if I am wrong here. So from my understanding, you are looking at sort of the subject more subjective aspects. So I guess an economist will, like you said, just look at um wages, look at how much it costs to maybe live in Indonesia, and then they would maybe compare that to what the wellbeing scores are. But you're trying to see more of the subjective nature of how people think the money which they have, how they feel about it, whether they feel secure or safe, how that is related to their subjective wellbeing. So it's not about whether they're really rich or not, but it's about do they think how much money they have is good for them subjectively? Or that's one aspect of what you were looking at. For economists, uh our research is too micro because the study is more broad and macroeconomy. So let's get into your study then, shall we? So you already said where you got the data from. So you said that from a massive survey and you sort of narrowed it down to about roughly 3,000, just over 3,000 participants based on some criteria. um What were you looking at? So what was the goal of this? Why such criteria? what were you doing? I'll let you talk for longer and you can just tell us what your methods of your study were and what you were trying to do. Okay, so our study looks at how social comparison influences subjective well-being in the context of Indonesian households. Unlike earlier research that often focuses on specific groups like employees or certain demographics, we take a broader household-based perspective. So this includes individuals and couples with or without children. following the United Nations definition of household. So the main goal is to shed the light on the role of social comparison in shaping well-being to respond to the limitation and contradiction we have seen in previous studies. So this study aims to bridge the gap by examining whether subjective financial well-being serves as a mediating mechanism between social comparison and subjective well-being. So what we are really asking in this study is, does comparing ourselves to others shape how happy or satisfied we feel with life? And if so, could the way we see our financial situation be the link that explains that connection? So comparing with ourself with others, ah mean we compare ourselves with others in many ways. I don't know how Indonesia is like, but me being an Indian, our parents always compared us to other people's kids as well. The same with us in Indonesia. See, Asian culture is lot more tightly knit than people think, isn't it? Yeah, Collective is, in Indonesia is collective is. Yeah. uh So you were thinking, ah this is just out of interest because I made the joke. oh So I don't know, when you're looking at comparisons, how people see themselves compared to others, you were only looking at it in a financial aspect or were you thinking about it in other aspects of life as well? Like they have a family or they're a doctor or they have a better job? Was occupation those kind of things also? I feel those are harder to measure, but were they also things you were looking at? Or was it mostly just financial? Hmm, yeah, but the social status and the financial thing. Yeah, but because this is oh Because this is a secondary data so we cannot Intervene what is the scale that they use so we just take it the result of the data Yes about the they compare with the family specifically because the reference group that we can compare can be various it can be our colleague our friends our best friend our neighbor but in this situation in this research they compare with the family So with another family or within the family? oh Or are you comparing single people to families or how? that in-law, the parents in-law Okay, so they... So sorry, so essentially so from the much larger survey you brought it down to about three thousand some Samples sort of I Can't I don't know I can't think of a better term But yeah, so from there is it like 30,000 households or is it sorry? not like 3,000 households or is it three thousand individuals? and are they compared to each other? okay, so 3000 households and those households compare against other households but within their sort of social circle. Yes, with the family. Okay. how they see themselves, so their subjective comparisons compared to their family. that's okay. So I'm getting this. This is actually quite interesting to see how people, I mean, in Indonesia, I have to be specific, can't generalize with the way people in Indonesia, how they compare themselves to ah the people around them. And you and so how do you do this? How do you even compare these things? So is it just based on the secondary survey data which you got? um Do you have to make any sort of accounting for certain things or? Yeah, uh do you have to? Are there certain questions? Because I feel like when they have a lot of data, when they do these big surveys, there's a lot of questions they ask. So are there certain questions you are more interested in? How does it go? Yeah, we, lot of instruments that they use in IFLS. So we just select the variable that relate to my research and Teda research, my core researcher. So, but I also check in the literature, is it any issue? Is it any research gap there? So it is also a reason for us to do the research. So we are not at another data collection, but we only use the data from the IFLS. So just sort of highlighting on those on that data, right? So could you tell us a bit more about, so this is secondary, but did you have a chance to go through what sort of questions were asked within the data? So do you mean you want to know how is the statement of the instrument, the skill? Do you mean like... so what questions were used to build the scale? So uh in the financial well-being, far as I remember, in the financial well-being, the respondent uh asked about their financial in the present moment and in the future. Is it uh they are satisfied enough or not in the present moment? And if they can imagine their financial condition in the future. They feel safe or no. is like, so the participant can choose the options of their answer. That is about the financial well-being. And then about the subjective well-being consists of life satisfaction and happiness. So the statement will be how happy are they with their life, how satisfied are they with their life. So they can choose uh the response on that scale, something like that. And about the social comparison, um there is a reference group, the family, and then they compare ah if they evaluate how is their social. social class compared to their family, something like that. The question. Nice. Okay, so what did you find? This is where I'm interested in. So the things you're looking at is subjective well-being, how it is related to how people compare themselves to others and their financial subjective well-being. So yeah, what did you find? Okay so the first social comparison on its own doesn't have a significant effect on happiness and life satisfaction. So and the second eh So comparing yourself to others does not have any effect, neither positive or negative. I'm surprised. I thought depending who you come... Yeah. In the previous literature, previous research said that uh if we compare to others, it will decrease our subjective well-being. It will decrease our happiness and life satisfaction. But probably because their instrument is very specific, dividing the social comparison based on upward and downward comparison. But in this scale, don't define it, the IFLS, they don't define the upward and downward comparison. So the result in our research is only social comparison doesn't have a significant effect on happiness and life satisfaction. So it will not decrease or increasing the subjective well-being. And the second one is financial well-being really does play a strong role in shaping life satisfaction and happiness. So at least we have the satisfaction in one domain like financial. And then finally, when we put it all together, financial well-being act as the bridge mediating the effect of social comparison on life satisfaction and happiness. That is the result. Okay, so... go ahead, Abish. I've got a question relating to that first conclusion. So you said in existing literature, they use upward and downward comparisons. Could you briefly explain? I'm not quite sure exactly what that is and also why is it? because your study has set that aside. Why was it not, why did you think it wasn't a good idea to make that sort of comparison? Thank you Amer. That is a good question. So upward and downward comparison. So upward is the situation when we compare to other people that superior than us. So probably he or she better regarding their knowledge, their salary, etc. And downward comparison is the situation when we compare ourselves. to the people who are more inferior than us. So we are better than them. ah Like, for example, I could see a person on the street and I determine whether this is making a downward comparison or upward comparison, or is it based on some defined metrics, say, for example, me versus my boss at work, and I'd be deemed that as an upward comparison. Is that, is it more objective or is it more in line with the person, your perspective of the person you're viewing it from? more on the perspective of the person because probably in the society boss is the status of our boss is higher but probably if we compare to our best friend that have best music skills than us it is also upward comparison or probably she is prettier than me that is also upward comparison not always the people that have higher status in the society like our boss or our lecturer, something like that. But it can also be the person who is near us in our social circle. So based on the perspective of the one who compared themselves to others. So yeah, my second part was why did you feel in this study that was a hindrance or that was a limitation that you had to get rid of? Yes, I admit this is the limitation of the study because the scale is not specific enough, yeah, dividing the upward and downward probably uh that contribute to the different result in this study. But at least we can have a conclusion that even though this is the general social comparison, not the specific social comparison upward and downward, it is also not contribute to happiness and life satisfaction. If we constantly compare to other, so we cannot be happy or satisfied with our life. So the key takeaway in this study is uh try to be aware what is our personal standard of satisfaction. ah our goal in our happiness, not based on the society standard. That's a good first takeaway. I mean, yeah, I was just thinking that when you go about comparing yourself to others subjectively, you compare, you upwards compare sometimes, you downwards compare sometimes, but in the end, I mean, I think I'm just saying like, I feel on average, you're comparing up and down enough that it should not make that much of a difference. Then I guess there's certain people who will always compare up and certain people who will always compare down. And maybe it makes a difference to them, but I feel. On the whole, you're comparing up and down enough between people for various things. uh Various things. He's taller than me, but he has a weird foot. It's Some of this is something. don't know. Because we are human, we try to validate ourselves by comparing to others. So it is very normal. Yeah. Okay. So that's the social comparison. The next thing was the financial comparison. So you said that this played a role. So subjective financial well-being plays a role in your subjective well-being. uh So and how do and what way does that work? If you think you have more money, you're happier or if you have more money, you're happier. So can money buy happiness? If we think that we are quite safe with our financial condition in the present moment and in the future, so we are happy, we are satisfied with life. At least we can take a look in the positive sides of our financial condition. So it is not about the objective, the fact that how much money that we have, but at least if we... feel grateful with our financial condition in the present and in the future moment. So we can be happy. We can have a life satisfaction. uh So I want to ask this. So were there any people in the survey who were happy about the financial situation in the present but weren't satisfied with what they expect their financial situation to be in the future? And were there any such people in the survey? And if so, what was their sort of... uh what was their sort of well-being indication there. So you have money now, but you're not going to have money in They don't expect to have money in the future. Yeah, probably they can be financially insecure in the future. So it's okay because we just analyze it. But if they didn't uh answer the question, so we will cut the data. So as long as the participant answer the question, answer the item about the present moment and in the future, are they feel secure or not, so we just analyze the data. So we find the complete answer one. If they are not sure, but at least they take the answer, it's okay, we can analyze. But this is more of a general question, I think. I think a lot of people just generally in the world right now, there'd be a few people who might be like, okay, at the moment, my finances are good, but looking at where the country is going or where the world is going that in the future, my financial situation might not be good if it stays the same. Does that play an effect on your subjective well-being? It must, right? ah if you don't think that your future will be uh safe, financially secure. Yeah, I think it will affect, but the data said that uh if we feel secure, even though we cannot predict the future, if at least their self-evaluation with the financial situation, they feel secure, so it will contribute to their well-being, to their happiness. Okay. like that. I also had a question about the demographics of the 3,000 or so households. So were these all uh families with, know, the pair with the, but these all families with parents within a certain age range, or was it a bit, so could you speak a bit on that? So the demographic is they are from 13 provinces in Indonesia and the participants being aged between 21 until 60. So it is quite... that make a difference? Was there a difference between ages or age groups of satisfaction or comparison or well-being? Are some ages happier than other ages? That is a very interesting question. But unfortunately, in this research, we don't analyze specifically based on their age. So we just test the model with the path analysis, path analysis, how the connection, the correlation between the social comparisons, subjective financial well-being, and subjective well-being that we... divide it into happiness and life satisfaction. But probably next it will be interesting if we analyze a bit more specific. Yeah, I imagine if it were, if in that study there could be a situation where a lot more younger people take currently not financially well off and then aspire to be and... Because that's why, because it's my situation I'd say. Yeah, that is also a good question. uh I know three. Did you see any trends of people saying at the moment we are not financially secure, but we predict in the future we will be financially secure? Are people optimistic that way or is that something you didn't look at? Yeah, that's also something that I didn't look at. to put into context, the background of their education, probably it will explain more about the background. Around 38.2 % the education is senior high school. And then 21.8 % is junior high school. And then only few like 19.1 is from university, the level of the education. So most of them is not entering the university. Probably because of that, they are more grateful with their condition because no choice. probably the career path is they have not a lot. lot of options uh with their career path probably but ah I was not analyzed very deep into that. These are all study questions for next time. Yeah, next time probably I will analyze that trend. But the final question which I had about the results was, so we spoke about social comparison, we spoke about financial well-being. You said that financial well-being mediates this role. That was the third finding which you said, correct? Could you explain that one again, please? uh Social comparison, subjective financial well-being is about how satisfied are we with the financial condition in the present and in the future moment. So if we have this financial secure, so it will contribute to the happiness and life satisfaction. But if we constantly compare with others only uh compare to others so it will not contribute to the subjective well-being. But at least if we have one single domain that we satisfy enough, it will contribute to our happiness and last satisfaction. So if we focus only comparing ourselves to others, it will not bring us to anywhere. in terms of happiness and satisfaction. But if we have one domain like financial situation that we feel secure, it can contribute to our well-being. So I think also the important thing is if we have the financial capabilities to save or to spend wisely. I think it also contributes to our financial security. So I think that it's ah important to have the capabilities to manage our money so we feel secure and then it will bring to the well-being. Is it clear enough? the key takeaway is if you feel financially secure, so if you have enough money to financially sort of be able to save, to be able to take care of yourself, then do as much social comparison as you want, you're completely fine. And yeah. Is that... m I'm interested in sort of the more practical aspects or discussion of it. does, so we spoke about your results, but what does this mean for us, for everybody, like in a practical sense? Yeah, so what is, I guess the discussions and implications of your findings. Okay, so there are a few recommendations that come out of this research. First, we should try to reduce how often we engage in social comparison because constantly measuring ourselves against others is not very helpful to our well-being. And the second, it is important to strengthen our financial skills and capabilities because that sense of control really matters. because if we have this sense of control of our financial condition, so it can contribute to our happiness and satisfaction. the third, we can work on appreciating and feeling more satisfied with our financial situation instead of focusing only on what we lack. So we need to appreciate ourselves and feeling more satisfied. And then... Rather than chasing after other people's it is healthier to set our own personal standards for what well-being looks like for us. So in short, uh the key is shifting the focus inward on our own growth and financial confidence rather than outward on endless comparisons. I think, I think that's a very good those are very good sort of recommendations I quite, I quite like the, I quite like the last two. The first one social comparison now I'm human I will compare away. But if I, but if I, but it shows how important sort of that aspect of your focusing on yourself and if you can do things within your means that is and you have that sort of financial control, it's more important than someone who lacks that financial control but probably has a lot more money. They will not be like as happy like there's no point. mean, I guess there is a point but no point of having like millions of dollars if you're spending in the billions, then you're always in losses. You say that but then there's that saying, right? Is it saying I'd rather be crying in a Ferrari than in a Suzuki? That's, that's a, I remember this one sort of financial, ah I can't remember his name, he just said just, it's all about just spending less than what you earn and you're fine. Yeah, I think spending less than what you earn can bring the self of control in our financial condition, Yeah. But I mean, is where it comes into the practical sense, the economic sense of what the wages are and things. If what you earn is not enough to buy food, then you're in trouble again. But yeah, think those are good sort of recommendations. on a base level for people if they're trying to think about subjective well-being and improving one of the traits which you can, I guess, use your financial situation to help with your subjective well-being. ah We gave you a few ideas throughout of things to measure, ah but I should ask you, what are the next steps of your study? oh You said that this research was conducted a year ago before it was published, so what are you doing now and what are your future research plans? Okay, so Teda, my co-researchers and I uh have our own research projects, but specifically for this topic, we are working together as a team. uh Together, we plan to analyze the next wave of the data of IFLS and hopefully the data will be released soon. I don't know when. We are also considering analyzing it using longitudinal study method. Yeah. So what does a longitudinal study method mean? Sorry to interrupt you. Longitude analysis is uh comparing year by year based on the same data. Oh, okay. Yeah, It is also you for us. does it... So, oh just out of interest then, because they're coming, they're doing the same survey again, will they survey the same 80,000 families or will they survey different ones? Because I feel in longitudinal data, usually you study the same ones. the same with the same instrument. Probably they will add some instruments. Of course, uh I also have another project, another research project, but in terms of IFLS, Teda and me plan to analyze the next data if they release soon. So which aspects are you, which future direction are you most excited about from this paper, from this study? this paper, the article. direction are you most excited about to move this study forward? offer the study forward. Yeah. I think what interests me is studying a new method because it is also my first article using the big data. Usually I'm a qualitative researcher actually. And Teda usually using the structural equation modeling, quantitative research. So this is the first experience and so happy that it can. published in the Europe's Journal of Psychology and having this podcast with you. So the most interesting one is studying a new method for me. uh That's really awesome. I really enjoyed the study. was nice. was quite fun to listen to and also relatable because everybody studies about well-being. ah I think are quite important because usually we don't talk about it as much as we should. I think we talk about it more than when I was a child, but generally speaking, I still think we don't talk about it enough. uh and good to know that money does buy happiness. Yeah, that's, this is... Technically speaking, you knowing how much money you have buys happiness, not money buys happiness, technically speaking. dude, we just spent an hour talking about this. You cannot you cannot besmirch the study. Right. My bad. oh we need food. As a human, we need money and we need food to eat. But at some point, money uh can bring the secure. But at some point, it will not buy our happiness. So we need to be satisfied with our condition. So, there you go, there's the levels, there's the limits. Uh, okay. I was going for the tabloid title, the magazine title rather than the sea search title. Okay, one question which Beth, who isn't here, has started asking and I really like so I will ask it to you, Cecilia. uh If you had, there's no oh money restrictions, no skill restrictions, you don't have any problems with ethics or anything like that, what's, what is a dreams research study which you would like to do? What is your main interest going forward? If you had all this accessibility to everything. It is a very challenging question because I cannot imagine. But my dream is as a researcher, I want to bring positive impact to the participant and to the people, not only the participant. Sometimes as a researcher, I feel that the benefit is only for me and for the academician who who cite my work or who read the article. But for the participants, because usually I do the qualitative research, sometimes I feel that do they have a benefit when being my participant? So I want to have a concrete contribution to my participant and also contribute to the literature. That is my dream. think that's a very good goal. think we're moving more in that direction personally. I also do qualitative work now. think personally we're moving in that role but I feel overall there's still a long way to go. There's a big history, especially in places like... in India, in New Zealand with Maori participants, ah I guess the same in Southeast Asia in general. A lot of, you mentioned at the start, a lot of people do the research from the outside and they don't necessarily benefit the people who they're doing the research on. So I think that's a very good thing and a very good goal to aspire towards. So you are researching again about rats and alcohol? I used to, I used to, that is a past life. My new research is not that, it's still with alcohol, but I work with people who have substance use issues and trying to find better uh integrated care support for them. So it's more working with people and working with the public health care system here and community organizations and trying to help. design better ah systems, better integrated care systems for them. So yeah, that's why I'm saying I think we're moving in a better direction because I, but. Yeah. With Amer also. Yeah, that was a fun one. So yeah, go, go people check that one out. um So just to wrap up, Celia, we can talk about my podcast more later. um But just to wrap up, are there any final things about your study, which we did not cover or anything that you wanted to say, which we forgot? I think that's all. I already covered the issue in the article. No, awesome. see, look at that armor. We've been very thorough. All right. Usually we come to the end and I guess like, you did not ask this and this and this yet. Okay. we've done a good job. We're getting there. I enjoyed this podcast very much. is my first experience doing this podcast and it challenged myself because I practice very often to practice my English. Hopefully I can deliver the message well. No. Also, I think you did a great job, if it means anything, whatsoever. But thank you so much, Cecilia, for coming on. uh Thank you, everybody, for listening. um As we mentioned, or as I usually mention, I don't know if I did at the start, but Europe's Journal of Psychology is open access, so anybody can read it. So the link to Cecilia's paper will be in the description of the video and of the... of the Spotify description, whatever. So feel free to go read it. uh And if you want, can contact Cecilia and ask more questions about it. So thank you, everybody, again, for listening. Thank you, Cecilia, again. Thanks, Amer again. And take care. Until next time. Amer and Sahir. See you.